Tyrone - Where to now?

So, after multiple all-ireland titles across various age groups, Tyrone's great side has finally come to the end. The next few months will see one of the greatest mass retirements of all-ireland winners ever seen, and then rebuilding will have to start in earnest.

I guess the first thing to do is look at who we may have seen the last of and, to do that I'm going to list all those current panelists who will be 29 or older come next summer:

Brian Dooher, Ryan McMenamin, Conor Gormley, Philip Jordan, Stephen O'Neill, Eoin Mulligan, Brian McGuigan, Enda McGinley, Kevin Hughes, Pascal McConnell (all 32 or older next summer).

Davy Harte, John Devine, Dermot Carlin, Joe McMahon, Tommy McGuigan, Sean Cavanagh, Martin Penrose (all 29 or older next summer).

So, 17 players who will be 29 or older next year, and my guess is that at least 7-8 of those will not be around. Possibly more, if the likes of Tommy McGuigan, Carlin, Davy Harte and John Devine, none of whom are first team regulars, think that they too have had enough at this stage.

It will be impossible to replace those players in the short-medium term, but the big challenge for Mickey is to keep Tyrone competitive for the next few years, and to try to build a new side that can again challenge. That is a big ask. Kevin Heffernan won all-ireland with 2 very different sides, as did Sean Boylan, but no other manager has succeeded in doing this.

Tyrone must first look at their preparation. The team was not fit enough on Saturday, nor were we in the last couple of years. Starting serious training in mid-late spring with a view to building for August is perhaps necessary if you are trying to protect an aging side, but I'd prefer to see Tyrone flying next February/March, as younger players are able to keep this going for longer. Look at Donegal for evidence of this, or Dublin who were running early mornings in January. We have to be fitter, and also stronger.

The league must be used to give serious game time to new players, even if the U21s are having a good run. This year we hardly saw any U21s in the league, as they were unavailable due to a prolonged Ulster Championship run.

As for personnel, well we have the basis of a decent side for the next couple of years, at least until Sean Cavanagh and Joey McMahon slow. Based on last weekend's team, I'd suggest that we need 2 new backs for next year (to go with O'Neill, Swift, Joey & Justy), a new powerful midfielder (not Cassidy) to play with Sean Cav, and 3 new forwards to go with Penrose, Harte & Colm Cavanagh. That is a bare minimum, and we aren't exactly inundated with candidates.

Still, it is a good chance for Mickey to take stock of everything, (personnel, training, style of play etc), and I'm glad to see that he will be staying on next year to do it. It will be a while before we win another all-ireland, but that is to be expected. The likes of O'Neill, McGuigan Dooher, Gormley and the rest have just made us a bit greedy in Tyrone, and impatient for the good times to start all over again.

Tyrone will have to be very careful about how they approach the next few years...a mass exodus may leave a gap that even with Tyrone's strength underage will be hard to fill. Some players certainly have to go, but Harte should try get a few of the old stars to remain so that a gradual transition can take place rather than a drastic overhaul.

The biggest obstacle will be adjusting the Tyrone mindset and expectations. Tyrone are by absolutely no means a spent force and I would not be overly surprised to see them in the quarter finals next year, provided this 'mass exodus' that is being talked about doesn't happen. But they are no longer going to strut into Croke Park with relative ease, they're going to have to struggle, and do this against teams who are now matching, even increasing, the intensity which Tyrone brought to game in the previous decade.

As Jarlath Burns rightly said, the Tyrone system that has for so long kept them in and around the top requires absolute work rate...which in turn requires supreme fitness. From 2003-2008 Tyrone had all the attributes of a great team but on top of that they had an organised and intense system, orchestrated masterfully from the sidelines. This made them extremely hard to beat and they played with a real swagger that even mighty Kerry just couldn't handle. But that great team has aged, the fitness isn't there and the system simply demands too much of them now.

The problem for Mickey Harte is this; while he is known for his ability to repeatedly adapt his side to new circumstances as the decade wore on, he did this with an absolutely exceptional bunch of players. As good as the Tyrone youths system is, they will be hard pressed to recreate a single team that possesses the might of a team containing Peter Canavan, Brian Dooher, Philly Jordan, Stephen O'Neill, Enda McGinley, the McMahons, Sean Cavanagh, and Conor Gormley.

James McCartan, in typical cute fashion, advised Mickey Harte to stand down if there's someone better for the job. Whether there is or not I'm not sure. But Harte brought this team up through the ranks, had a special almost father-like connection with them. He had known them since they were 18 and Tyrone were nothing more than a plucky Ulster side containing Peter Canavan to the day they joined Gaelic football's greats in 2008. Whether or not he can ever recreate that affinity that made him such a great manager to that team is a question he will have to ask himself. He will now be dealing with a transitional period where Tyrone will face the hard truth of no longer being a superpower in the Championship race.

Of the aged 30+ players I certainly expect Dooher, McMenamin, Gormley, Mulligan, McGinley, and Hughes to step down. I feel Jordan and Brian McGuigan would play a good role in the transition of new talent but whether this role provides any appetite for them to continue I just don't know.

It's going to be difficult for Tyrone. But a major comfort will be their pool of underage talent which will surely be enough to maintain their high standing.

Lads there are many lads who won big things at underage and didn't make it at senior. Laois especially and Westmeath too had great success at underage but not at Senior. Its all very well talking about Tyrone's underage strength - and they have had great success - but there is no guarantee these lads will fit seamlessly into senior or even make the grade.

Jayo Cluxton wrote:Lads there are many lads who won big things at underage and didn't make it at senior. Laois especially and Westmeath too had great success at underage but not at Senior. Its all very well talking about Tyrone's underage strength - and they have had great success - but there is no guarantee these lads will fit seamlessly into senior or even make the grade.

Difference with Laois/Westmeath and Tyrone is success. More minors/u-21 will give the effort if they feel that the result will be All Ireland glory down the road. Tyrone in the past 10 years have won a lot of titles so the young lads' aim will to reach that goal. Success breeds success.

[quote="Real Kerry Fan"]

Jayo Cluxton wrote:Difference with Laois/Westmeath and Tyrone is success. More minors/u-21 will give the effort if they feel that the result will be All Ireland glory down the road. Tyrone in the past 10 years have won a lot of titles so the young lads' aim will to reach that goal. Success breeds success.

No - don't agree. Kerry have won very little at underage level and yet win Seniors all the time.

Tyrone have enough underage quality to be competitive, but not enough coming through to be referred to as having a 'conveyor belt' of talent. We have bucketloads of good young players, but don't seem to be finding the couple of stars you need from each year to go on to be top senior players.

Perhaps expectations are too high. I mean. realistically, the 1998 minor team (and 2000/1 U21 teams) were a freak collection of players, and it is unlikely that we will have their likes again in Tyrone. An U21 side with Kevin Hughes, Brian McGuigan, Eoin Mulligan, Stevie O'Neill, Cormac McAnallen, Philly Jordan, Conor Gormley, Ryan Mellon, Ciaran Gourley, Gavin Devlin, Mark Harte and Mickey McGee all on the one side is, at best, a once in a generation side, and it would be extremely good luck for us to be blessed like that again.

We have won 4 all-ireland minor titles since then, but not really got the same quality of player coming through, hence Mickey Harte has found it difficult to replace some of his older stars. We have produced plenty of quick, skillful players, but don't seem to be finding the big, strong athletes that are successful at senior level. This is born out by none of our recent minor sides going on to do anything at U21 level.

To aid long-term success, Tyrone have to look at their underage structures, the type of player we are producing, and determine why our last 4 all ireland minor titles have only led to a total of 1 Ulster U21 title.

Thats what I am saying TC. Also is there a case here where because the senior lads were so good for so long that the newbies couldn't really get a look in?

Not that long ago TC started a thread concerning the myth that was the conveyor belt of talent that was being churned out in Tyrone. And i have to say i agreed with him back then and still do to a certain extent.

The next few years will us if it is a myth!!! Mickeys hand will be forced in some respects now as there will be definite retirements. Not as many as some people are saying. I can see Dooher going along with Enda McGinley, Mugsy & Brian McGuigan. Gormley will stay as will Jordan the likes of Ricey while he may be keen to go Mickey may try and hang onto him if only for a presence in the dressing room and at training.

Its the end of an era for this team and the beginning of a new one for the young pretenders coming through. There is no doubt modern football is a young mans game!!!

[quote="Jayo Cluxton"]

Real Kerry Fan wrote:

Jayo Cluxton wrote:Difference with Laois/Westmeath and Tyrone is success. More minors/u-21 will give the effort if they feel that the result will be All Ireland glory down the road. Tyrone in the past 10 years have won a lot of titles so the young lads' aim will to reach that goal. Success breeds success.

No - don't agree. Kerry have won very little at underage level and yet win Seniors all the time.

They have won 10 of the last 16 munster minor title

The Puke wrote:They have won 10 of the last 16 munster minor title

Would you ever fook off with your Munster titles ya gobshite - a fooking two horse race with Tipp winning the odd one every decade. They have won 2 minor titles in the last 30 years. It's sh1t record for a county that does so well at senior level.

Most minor teams are made up of precocious individuals......You can never fully tell who will make it at that age as rates of development are different in everyone.....That is why u21 is a better reflection of what is to come. Problem with the u21 grade though is that it's a once-off knockout competition - no League, no back-door. So inevitably there will be freak results in that too.

Jayo Cluxton wrote:

The Puke wrote:They have won 10 of the last 16 munster minor title

Would you ever fook off with your Munster titles ya gobshite - a fooking two horse race with Tipp winning the odd one every decade. They have won 2 minor titles in the last 30 years. It's sh1t record for a county that does so well at senior level.

they still won them, and makes your initial point invalid, although i don't expect you to admit you were wrong as you never do. But don't let the facts get in the way anyway. Last time I checked they were top of the roll of honour for All Ireland minor titles as well. Not too bad for a county that supposedly has won very little at underage

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:So inevitably there will be freak results in that too.

Yeah ... sure Meath beat Dublin this year ......

The Puke wrote:they still won them, and makes your initial point invalid, although i don't expect you to admit you were wrong as you never do. But don't let the facts get in the way anyway. Last time I checked they were top of the roll of honour for All Ireland minor titles as well. Not too bad for a county that supposedly has won very little at underage

How the fook asm I wrong and my point invalid? Beating Cork every other year top win a meaningless title is success is it? Won very little in recent years is what I obviously meant - check the records - it stands.

Its you who thinks he's never wrong by the way - you seem to know fooking everything about everything even though you hate bogball. And really you know fook all as far as I can see.

Jayo Cluxton wrote:

The Puke wrote:they still won them, and makes your initial point invalid, although i don't expect you to admit you were wrong as you never do. But don't let the facts get in the way anyway. Last time I checked they were top of the roll of honour for All Ireland minor titles as well. Not too bad for a county that supposedly has won very little at underage

How the fook asm I wrong and my point invalid? Beating Cork every other year top win a meaningless title is success is it? Won very little in recent years is what I obviously meant - check the records - it stands.

Its you who thinks he's never wrong by the way - you seem to know fooking everything about everything even though you hate bogball. And really you know fook all as far as I can see.

i could be wrong but I very much doubt it but Munster also tops the roll of honour for the most successful province at minor football level with 23 titles, funny that considering that considering it is deemed a meaningless competition with only two decent sides in it

hey clown - this is a discussion about Tyrone's prospects. We are not talking history here. I made the point that Kerry's recent success is not backed by underage success and its not. End of story. Nothing to do with rolls of honour or Munster or anything. But a Munster football title of any description over most of the last 125 years is a two horse race and a joke. And still ye have fook all of them mind.

and even if you were to say that Kerry have only womn three A/I minor titles since 1980 only two other sides Cork and Tyrone have won more in the last 31 years

The Puke wrote:and even if you were to say that Kerry have only womn three A/I minor titles since 1980 only two other sides Cork and Tyrone have won more in the last 31 years

So? I can google too - whats your point? My point is as above - it remains the same.

Jayo Cluxton wrote:

The Puke wrote:and even if you were to say that Kerry have only womn three A/I minor titles since 1980 only two other sides Cork and Tyrone have won more in the last 31 years

So? I can google too - whats your point? My point is as above - it remains the same.

My point is that Kerry lack of success at underage level is completely overstated. They have won 16 munster titles since 1980 which means that for the most part their minor side is playing well into July/August more often than not unike the majority of other sides who are out by April/May and this is the best of time to be training lads when the evenings are long the ground is hard the ball is moving fast which in huge in terms of developing young players, winning minor A/I's is far more important for sides who are trying to make the breakthrough as opposed to Kerry due to their success at senior level these young lads who have done well at minor level are entering a senior set up full of leaders and players who have seen it all and done it all and the emphasis isn't on the young player to step up and lead meaning they can find their feet easier at senior level as opposed to young lads from a success starved county who is expected to step up to the plate and deliver at 20 or 21.

Again it is not a case that the likes of Dublin, Cork, Galway, Tyrone etc have been dominating this level for the last 20 years and kerry have been left behind, there is record is quite good, 10 of the last 16 munster titles is nothing to be sneered and there is no point trying to paint a picture that they are struggling or off the pace at underage level over the last decade or two when it has been an open enough competition in which they have competed well in and their record over the last 15 years or so stacks up well with any other team at minor level in that time, 16 provincial titles and 8 A/I final appearances is a fine record and only cork have competed in more A/I finals in that time at minor level. To say they have had no success at underage level is unmitigated bullshit and they have one of the best records in the country in this time. They have 5 under 21 A/I's since 1990 which is more than any other team and have competed in 8 finals in that time, more than any other county over the last 21 years.

Their record at underage level might not be as impressive as their haul at senior level but to say they have had little success is well wide of the mark & shows a very myopic way of perceiving underage results. They have a record at underage level that is as good as any other county in the country and far better than the vast majority of teams.

this tyrone team was one of the best and what they do know will have a huge bearing on the future of tyrone football , i remember when tommy carr took over in dublin he retired a lot of players and set dublin back years , but mickey harte is to smart for this i would reakon he will hold trials in a couple of months and build a big squad of about 60 , with the more established players given a rest till the end of the national league , tyrone will be back and back with a vengence but its what they do know over the next couple of months will decice how quick this will be

The rumour mill supposedly has it that Dooher, McGuigan and Gormley pulled the pin straight after the game, Sean Cavanagh has suggested that there will be a few retirements and Mickey Harte has suggested that whilst there will be a few retirements he did not foresee a major change.

Some of these players have been on the batter since 2000 such as McMenamin, Hub, McGuigan and O'Neill. Dooher has been on the senior set-up since 1996. Each and every one of them has given us many years of enjoyment and I do expect that there will be some retirements but don't think that an en-masse exodus will do Tyrone any favours.

On the youth side of things I fortunately got to see all the Under 21 games this year and although they were beaten in the final by Cavan I believe there were enough reasons to be cheerful and there are some wonderful prospects that can make an impact at senior level. We've seen glimpses of Pete Harte and Kyle Coney at senior but there is massive potential in defenders like Ronan McNamee, Niall Sludden, Kevin Mossey and Ronan McNabb midfielders Niall McKenna and Richie Donnelly and forward talent like Ciaran Girvan, Shea McGuigan, Paddy McNeice, Ronan O'Neill and Mattie Donnelly. I would hope that these players are given opportunities in next years McKenna cup and National league and can learn from some of those seasoned campaigners who choose to remain on the panel.

The other important thing for us to take on board is that each of these players are individual talents and not the new Philly Jordan or the new Ricey McMenamin etc etc. In time they will hopefully steer their own course and propell us towards further glory in the next few years.

As Others See Us…. Musings Of An Offaly Man

End of a Great Team – A Tyrone Tribute

I don’t normally post like this, but I felt I wanted to this morning. As I watched the events in Croke Park unfold before my eyes yesterday evening, it became apparent that we were probably seeing the end of one of the great teams of recent times. As Dublin powered for home and brushed aside the despairing challenge of Tyrone, I was transfixed by the sight of players who had graced the fields of Ireland for a decade unable to match this new power on the block, and the symbolism of Conor Gormley, a warrior among warriors, flailing and fouling helplessly was a stark metaphor for what we were seeing.

When the game ended I, as a neutral, felt sad for the vanquished, and happy for Dublin, but I also started to consider what this Tyrone team meant, not as a fan, but as an observer. And as an observer whose own team seldom came into the same sphere as Tyrone in the past decade, and certainly never in the championship.
Pat Spillane coined the phrase ‘puke football’ after one of the early Kerry defeats to Tyrone (a 0-13 to 0-6 victory in the 2003 semi final) and this was epitomised by the seminal photograph of 1 Kerry man on the ground surrounded by no less than 8 Tyrone players. There is no doubt that Kerry – the great team of the last decade – were definitely scuppered by Tyrone on more than one occasion and while the Kingdom would fear no team, they certainly respected and were flummoxed more than once by Mickey Harte and his men.

But ‘puke football’ was always sensationalism by Pat, and I doubt if a ‘puke’ football team could have given us players like Conor Gormley, Peter Canavan, Philly Jordan, Owen Mulligan, Stephen O’Neill, Sean Cavanagh, Cormac McAnallen (all too briefly) and many others.

Their story was dramatic, with liberal dashings of unbelievable tragedy thrown in for good measure. We watched from afar the sheer awfulness of the losses of Paul McGirr, Cormac McAnallen and of course the most recent bombshell with the death of Mickey’s daughter Michaela. Most teams would have crumbled with the pain of any one of those events, but this team, led by their inspirational manager, were able to become a living tribute to their missing friends and to mark their memories by their deeds on the field. Someone remarked that Tyrone were carried off on their shields last night, a reference to the famous Spartan battle cry, and I’m sure Paul, Cormac and Michaela were looking down with pride as the old soldiers spilled their sweat yet again in a huge effort. What about it if they lost? We all lose eventually, and there is no shame losing to a better team. When great teams lose they usually lose badly. All you can do is make sure you go down swinging, and the way they kept going to the end was as expected as it was fitting.

My personal memories of Tyrone began with a visit to Croke Park with my brother back in 2002 to see them lose to Sligo before Mickey Harte arrived on the scene. I remember very little from the game other than Tyrone struggled to compete out the field, and that their inside forward line of Brian McGuigan, Stephen O’Neill and Peter Canavan were absolutely blinding in their movement and pace. They ran aground due to lack of ball, but I remember coming away that day raving about their movement, and I haven’t stopped since. It remains the template for me in terms of how inside forwards should operate.

From then, we were spoiled. Of course their football had its critics, but moments like Conor Gormley’s block in the 2003 final, Peter Canavan’s exquisite finish in the 2005 All Ireland Final, the raw emotion as Cormac McAnallen’s name was invoked in the presentation afterwards, the swarm of White and Red down on the field as I looked down from the Hogan Stand, the resilience in 2008 to again beat a great Kerry side in the final, Kevin Hughes’ performance that day, Sean Cavanagh’s driving runs and great goals, Ryan McMenamin being a nuisance to everyone, Owen Mulligan’s goal of the decade against Dublin, Stephen O’Neill’s arcing, graceful point scoring, Brian McGuigan’s playmaking and skill and what probably defined this Tyrone team more than anyone, Brian Dooher’s mix of skill and sheer lung busting work which redefined the position of wing half forward. Another aspect of this team which lives in my mind is the grace and humility which characterised Mickey Harte in all of his public, and not so public, appearances. A great man who led a great team.
Kerry, Armagh and Tyrone were undoubtedly the 3 super powers of the last decade, and Kerry and Tyrone were numbers 1 and 2 in my mind. Armagh have drifted away in the past couple of years, and it looks like Tyrone may be heading for a period of rebuilding, although it’s a good bet that their foundations are solid and the time may be short before we see them back in Croke Park on All Ireland day. No matter how that turns out, there is no doubt, in my opinion anyway, that this Tyrone team has been one of the most influential teams of all time in terms of their impact on the game, this team has given us some of the best moments and players ever to grace Croke Park, and that this team deserves its place in the annals of our games history.

Of course you can never write anybody off, especially a team like this, but it was hard to escape the feeling that we were watching the end of an era last night. If I’m wrong, I’m sure I’ll be embarrassed reading this in the future but, if we were, then thanks Mickey Harte, and thanks to all your players. You’ve given us talking points, memories, great games and you’ve given a generation of Tyrone kids a whole host of heroes to emulate.

Comhghairdeas agus go raibh maith agaibh.

The tone of the posts on this thread infer that the immediate future of Tyrone is in their own hands - provided those in positions of power make the 'right' decisions. I'm not so sure. Maybe in the longer-term that is the case but next 2-3 years could be tough for Tyrone supporters. All the signs are that around half a dozen of the 2003-2008 ilk will call it a day. And nobody is there to replace them best highlighted by the fact that a lot of the older generation have retained their starting places around two years longer than they should. Until at least 2014, Tyrone will remain competitive in Division 2 of the League and the Ulster championship but there'll be no dominance. In fact, there'll probaby be a few more defeats to teams who Tyrone would not be accustomed to losing to - you're Derrys, you're Downs, you're Cavans - those kind of teams.

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:The tone of the posts on this thread infer that the immediate future of Tyrone is in their own hands - provided those in positions of power make the 'right' decisions. I'm not so sure. Maybe in the longer-term that is the case but next 2-3 years could be tough for Tyrone supporters. All the signs are that around half a dozen of the 2003-2008 ilk will call it a day. And nobody is there to replace them best highlighted by the fact that a lot of the older generation have retained their starting places around two years longer than they should. Until at least 2014, Tyrone will remain competitive in Division 2 of the League and the Ulster championship but there'll be no dominance. In fact, there'll probaby be a few more defeats to teams who Tyrone would not be accustomed to losing to - you're Derrys, you're Downs, you're Cavans - those kind of teams.

Loyal in some respects i agree with a lot of what your saying. Many of us lost the run of ourselves ahead of Saturdays game in that we genuinely thought Tyrone would win, i didn't speak to one Tyrone fan who thought we would lose. There is a saying you don't become a bad team over night, in Tyrone's case the reverse was true. We didn't suddenly become a very good team overnight. Granted we put big scores up against Armagh and Roscommon, but lets face it the reality is those two are nowhere near what we would call superpowers in the word of Gaelic football.

Without being too critical, and also mindful of the fact that its unlikely Dublin will put on another show like that this year, we are closer to Roscommon and Armagh than we are to Dublin. And the next few years will be a slow building process.

With all the talk of personnel within the team changing i wonder if Mickey would look at refreshing the backroom team up a bit. A new trainer with fresh ideas or perhaps even a situation were Mickey would take control of the u21s as well as the seniors. Either way we are unlikely to see a bunch of players like the ones we have had the pleasure of watching for the last decade or more. Not only were the a talented bunch they were a committed bunch and had no bother making sacrifices for the team. The young lads coming through now are talented but they dont seem to have the same hunger or the same level of commitment, perhaps if they were exposed to Mickeys 'regime' at an earlier age we would reap the benefits.

We will still support them regardless, the 3 All Ireland wins were truly something and the memories of those 3 great days will never leave me.

Very good post Boc, and I'd agree with all of it. I also share Loyal's view that Tyrone will have a couple of tough years ahead.

Your point about the new backroom team is something that I think is essential. Tyrone were not fit enough for the last 3 years, and trainer Fergal McCann has to take some of the responsibility there. It is unlikely that Mickey will say goodbye to Tony Donnelly as his assistant, but a new trainer should be brought in.

I'd like to see us playing a faster and more intense game than in recent seasons, and would like to add more power and pace into the side. Perhaps easier said than done, but Tyrone are being left behind by the likes of Cork & Dublin in the physicality stakes. Even Roscommon were ahead of us in this regard, but experience got us out of trouble there.

Again I know it won't happen, but I'd also like to see Mickey in charge of the U21s, as it would help give Mickey a closer look at them, in a style of play that he could see them playing at senior level. I shold add that I have little faith in current U21 manager Raymond Munroe.

Looking at the 15 that played against Dublin, Tyrone's starting point for next year has to be replacements for Gormley, Jordan, Hughes, McGuigan and Mulligan. Then consider that we also need to replace Ricey, McGinley, Dooher, Davy Harte and O'Neill, and you have 10 players who, until 6 weeks ago, were pretty much first team regulars. That gives an idea of the scale of rebuilding necessary, and should tell anyone that this is not something that can be done in a year or 2.

Another problem will be that,next year will be the last championship season under the age of 30 for, Sean Cavanagh, Penrose and Joe McMahon, so we will soon be talking about replacements for them also.

Tyrone can certainly remain competitive for the next couple of years, but building another all-ireland winning side is likely to take longer.