Re: Country is Goosed

**Thomas Clarke** Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:51 pm

mullins wrote:
When you go seeking revenge, dig two graves. Confucius

Is that what your saying TC

Your ability to miss the point is incredible.

**mullins** Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:58 pm

Thomas Clarke wrote:
mullins wrote:
When you go seeking revenge, dig two graves. Confucius

Is that what your saying TC

Your ability to miss the point is incredible.

Yes i know ,Don't understand it either might be panic attacks

**Thomas Clarke** Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:59 pm

Real Kerry Fan wrote:TC. It was not Joe Public who brought down the banks resulting in our present crisis. It was the greed of bonus seeking bankers + developers with the aid of the professional bodies and no regulation from the top. The morgage holders may be in trouble but they did not cause the banking meltdown. Now lets get on with it and try to rescue our country and never let it happen again.

RKF, how is the greed of Joe Public any different from the greed of bankers? The numbers that bankers deal in may be greater, but greed is greed.

Bankers took risks to earn profits, so did men buying 2nd or 3rd houses. Or what about the people who borrowed money to buy a 2nd car or take the family to Florida, taking the risk that they wouldnt lose their jobs and not be able to repay it. Or the couple that remortgaged their house to pay for a £40k wedding - did they not gamble on the market continuing to rise? Or the man who took £10k out of the credit union to build a patio area in the back garden, because the neighbours had one.

I'm not saying that all this isn't sad, but what the bankers and developers did was no different to what 95% of the public were doing, albeit with bigger numbers. Mullins is quick to hang people, but everyone is to blame.

**mullins** Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:03 pm

Thomas Clarke wrote:
Real Kerry Fan wrote:TC. It was not Joe Public who brought down the banks resulting in our present crisis. It was the greed of bonus seeking bankers + developers with the aid of the professional bodies and no regulation from the top. The morgage holders may be in trouble but they did not cause the banking meltdown. Now lets get on with it and try to rescue our country and never let it happen again.

RKF, how is the greed of Joe Public any different from the greed of bankers? The numbers that bankers deal in may be greater, but greed is greed.

Bankers took risks to earn profits, so did men buying 2nd or 3rd houses. Or what about the people who borrowed money to buy a 2nd car or take the family to Florida, taking the risk that they wouldnt lose their jobs and not be able to repay it. Or the couple that remortgaged their house to pay for a £40k wedding - did they not gamble on the market continuing to rise? Or the man who took £10k out of the credit union to build a patio area in the back garden, because the neighbours had one.

You just don't get it TC joe public hasn't being bailed out yet..Till there bailed out they should shoulder none of the blame..
I'm not saying that all this isn't sad, but what the bankers and developers did was no different to what 95% of the public were doing, albeit with bigger numbers. Mullins is quick to hang people, but everyone is to blame.

**mullins** Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:05 pm

Thomas Clarke wrote:
Real Kerry Fan wrote:TC. It was not Joe Public who brought down the banks resulting in our present crisis. It was the greed of bonus seeking bankers + developers with the aid of the professional bodies and no regulation from the top. The morgage holders may be in trouble but they did not cause the banking meltdown. Now lets get on with it and try to rescue our country and never let it happen again.

RKF, how is the greed of Joe Public any different from the greed of bankers? The numbers that bankers deal in may be greater, but greed is greed.

Bankers took risks to earn profits, so did men buying 2nd or 3rd houses. Or what about the people who borrowed money to buy a 2nd car or take the family to Florida, taking the risk that they wouldnt lose their jobs and not be able to repay it. Or the couple that remortgaged their house to pay for a £40k wedding - did they not gamble on the market continuing to rise? Or the man who took £10k out of the credit union to build a patio area in the back garden, because the neighbours had one.

I'm not saying that all this isn't sad, but what the bankers and developers did was no different to what 95% of the public were doing, albeit with bigger numbers. Mullins is quick to hang people, but everyone is to blame.

You just don't get it TC joe public hasn't being bailed out yet..Till there bailed out they should shoulder none of the blame..

**Thomas Clarke** Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:15 pm

mullins wrote:
You just don't get it TC joe public hasn't being bailed out yet..Till there bailed out they should shoulder none of the blame..

[/quote]

Actually Mullins, you don't get it. If the banks weren't bailed out, Joe Public would lose all their money in the banks, credit unions, and anywhere else they have it. The banks had to be rescued.

Sad as it is, an individual losing his house, is not as big a problem as Anglo Irish, AIB or whoever going under. Because then everyone loses everything.

**mullins** Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:27 pm

Thomas Clarke wrote:
mullins wrote:
You just don't get it TC joe public hasn't being bailed out yet..Till there bailed out they should shoulder none of the blame..

Actually Mullins, you don't get it. If the banks weren't bailed out, Joe Public would lose all their money in the banks, credit unions, and anywhere else they have it. The banks had to be rescued.

Sad as it is, an individual losing his house, is not as big a problem as Anglo Irish, AIB or whoever going under. Because then everyone loses everything.[/quote]

Anglo Irish should have being thrown to the wolves.....Tc someone is going to have to bail out Joe Soap..To many people in trouble to evict....

**Thomas Clarke** Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:19 pm

mullins wrote:
Anglo Irish should have being thrown to the wolves....

Mullins, half the credit unions in the country have money invested with Anglo Irish. That money is the savings of average working class people. That money would have been gone, if Anglo Irish had been 'thrown to the wolves'. Is that what you wanted? Would that have helped Joe Public? To lose their life savings?

The banks had to be bailed out. There was no other option.

**Peter Solan the Great** Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:21 pm

I see Sean Quinns part in this mess is coming to light.

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**mullins** Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:33 pm

Thomas Clarke wrote:
mullins wrote:
Anglo Irish should have being thrown to the wolves....

Mullins, half the credit unions in the country have money invested with Anglo Irish. That money is the savings of average working class people. That money would have been gone, if Anglo Irish had been 'thrown to the wolves'. Is that what you wanted? Would that have helped Joe Public? To lose their life savings?

The banks had to be bailed out. There was no other option.

Credit Union Anglo Irish linked source tc first i heard of it.. Question

**mullins** Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:47 pm

Peter Solan the Great wrote:I see Sean Quinns part in this mess is coming to light.

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Financial Terrorist Brillant ..They should be brought to justice and fook away the key..Live by the sword die by the sword....

**mullins** Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:29 pm

Thomas Clarke wrote:
mullins wrote:
Anglo Irish should have being thrown to the wolves....

Mullins, half the credit unions in the country have money invested with Anglo Irish. That money is the savings of average working class people. That money would have been gone, if Anglo Irish had been 'thrown to the wolves'. Is that what you wanted? Would that have helped Joe Public? To lose their life savings?

The banks had to be bailed out. There was no other option.

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TC maybe this link might tell you who the bond holders are..Think your wrong don't believe the spin doctors.. I don't

**Thomas Clarke** Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:16 pm

Oh I'm right Mullins, and am well informed. Where do you think Credit Unions invest their money? Do you think that they keep it in a big safe somewhere, and hope that it grows enough to pay your interest?

**mullins** Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:36 pm

Thomas Clarke wrote:Oh I'm right Mullins, and am well informed. Where do you think Credit Unions invest their money? Do you think that they keep it in a big safe somewhere, and hope that it grows enough to pay your interest?

TC i dont have a credit union account so i don't get interest..How much are they in to Anglo For Question

...But like the rest of anglos bond holders i believe they should burn...In lay mans terms for you if i back a horse and it loses, i lose tough....

**Real Kerry Fan** Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:38 pm

Thomas Clarke wrote:
mullins wrote:
Anglo Irish should have being thrown to the wolves....

Mullins, half the credit unions in the country have money invested with Anglo Irish. That money is the savings of average working class people. That money would have been gone, if Anglo Irish had been 'thrown to the wolves'. Is that what you wanted? Would that have helped Joe Public? To lose their life savings?

The banks had to be bailed out. There was no other option.

Good try there TC on Credit Unions. Not with Anglo sorry to in form you.

**JimWexford** Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:41 pm

Have a pint and forget about it.
Think of it, the only way is up (in about 10 years time, enough time for a good session to forget what trouble we are in)

**mullins** Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:44 pm

Real Kerry Fan wrote:
Thomas Clarke wrote:
mullins wrote:
Anglo Irish should have being thrown to the wolves....

Mullins, half the credit unions in the country have money invested with Anglo Irish. That money is the savings of average working class people. That money would have been gone, if Anglo Irish had been 'thrown to the wolves'. Is that what you wanted? Would that have helped Joe Public? To lose their life savings?

The banks had to be bailed out. There was no other option.

Good try there TC on Credit Unions. Not with Anglo sorry to in form you.

I think they were ,but only for less than you could win on the euro millions..They should have bought quick picks.. Neutral

**Thomas Clarke** Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:47 pm

Real Kerry Fan wrote:
Good try there TC on Credit Unions. Not with Anglo sorry to in form you.

Believe what you will RKF, but they do, certainly in the North. I am 100% certain of that.

Anyway, the point is the same if it was with AIB, BOI or whoever - if banks go under, people lose their money.

**patrique** Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:50 pm

mossbags wrote:Theres always a solution, that's never the issue.

Your false triumphalism in this instance is somewhat sickening, unworthy of you to be honest P

I DO NOT have any triumphalism. I think it is really sad and a disgrace.

But EVERYONE with sense saw it coming, except those living in the ROI who have BLIND faith in Fianna Fail and whatever, and are just conditioned to a "brown envelope" way of life.

Anyone who warned them was dismissed as a commie, public sector trade unionist in a cushy job.

It is not triumphalism, it is sheer unadulterated FRUSTRATION that people could be so schpid to fall for the crap the government offered.

Sorry if I misled you earlier.

**mullins** Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:51 pm

JimWexford wrote:Have a pint and forget about it.
Think of it, the only way is up (in about 10 years time, enough time for a good session to forget what trouble we are in)

Jim 10 years is to late -what we want his honesty and justice..Cant have 1 rule for the rich, and 1 for the poor..Prisons are full of criminals -lets build a new prison for bankers and goverment..

**mullins** Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:54 pm

Thomas Clarke wrote:
Real Kerry Fan wrote:
Good try there TC on Credit Unions. Not with Anglo sorry to in form you.

Believe what you will RKF, but they do, certainly in the North. I am 100% certain of that.

Anyway, the point is the same if it was with AIB, BOI or whoever - if banks go under, people lose their money.

Whatever about the other banks, Anglo should have being let go TC time will show the goverment got that wrong..

**patrique** Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:57 pm

Real Kerry Fan wrote:TC. It was not Joe Public who brought down the banks resulting in our present crisis. It was the greed of bonus seeking bankers + developers with the aid of the professional bodies and no regulation from the top. The morgage holders may be in trouble but they did not cause the banking meltdown. Now lets get on with it and try to rescue our country and never let it happen again.

agreed.

And you cannot get on with it by taking money off people. If you do that how can anyone BUY anything to boost the economy.

EVERYONE, except those in charge in Ireland, know that. And they know it as well, but do not want to upset the rich people who pour money into their political coffers.

Nationalise all the property and possessions of the tax dodgers for a start, and that will help. Seize every penny Bono owns for being a two faced sanctimonious tosser. "Tax the rich to solve the poverty problem (except me)" he cries.

And there are loads of them. You know who they are.

Do you know (and not many people know this) that a one off 5% tax on the richest 5% of people in GB would wipe off their 750 billion debt overnight?

Scary that.

**Boxtyeater** Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:55 am

[quote="mullins[b]"][Whatever about the other banks, Anglo should have being let go TC time will show the goverment got that wrong..[/[/b]quote]

I'm not getting embroiled in an argument here, but TC has a true and valid point...the Banks had to be guaranteed at the time. There were Credit Unions with money in it because of the rates being offered (between 0.5 and 2.5% above any other bank) and nobody would be happy had they been left out to dry...
The collapse of Anglo in Sept 08 would have closed the other 2 big banks within 48 hours and make no mistake about it...
The problems we are now experiencing are related to the blindness of bankers to the written down level of their exposure at the time....and we haven't botomed out yet either.
It's all very fine wailing and throwing blame around, but for anyone with a basic grasp of the Armageddon situation at the time there was no other option open...
It's all fairly simple really, the consumer wanted it all, carts, holidays, holiday homes, €40k weddings, .....the banks horsed it out because if A didn't B would,...people bought into this Utopia of good times,....spend spend. spend and the bank's deposit coffers were empty, hence they borrowed from abroad, bondholders etc....
How in the name of fook could people be so daft, I often wonder.....The Regulator was asleep at the wheel, or else was taking massive kickbacks.....

**mossbags** Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:27 am

patrique wrote:

Sorry if I misled you earlier.

I accept your apology Patrique, indeed, as a Guitar player myself, I appreciate how tough it must be for Bodhrán players in the current climate

**OMAR** Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:26 pm

[quote="Boxtyeater"]

mullins[b] wrote:[Whatever about the other banks, Anglo should have being let go TC time will show the goverment got that wrong..[/[/b]quote]

I'm not getting embroiled in an argument here, but TC has a true and valid point...the Banks had to be guaranteed at the time. There were Credit Unions with money in it because of the rates being offered (between 0.5 and 2.5% above any other bank) and nobody would be happy had they been left out to dry...
The collapse of Anglo in Sept 08 would have closed the other 2 big banks within 48 hours and make no mistake about it...
The problems we are now experiencing are related to the blindness of bankers to the written down level of their exposure at the time....and we haven't botomed out yet either.
It's all very fine wailing and throwing blame around, but for anyone with a basic grasp of the Armageddon situation at the time there was no other option open...
It's all fairly simple really, the consumer wanted it all, carts, holidays, holiday homes, €40k weddings, .....the banks horsed it out because if A didn't B would,...people bought into this Utopia of good times,....spend spend. spend and the bank's deposit coffers were empty, hence they borrowed from abroad, bondholders etc....
How in the name of fook could people be so daft, I often wonder.....The Regulator was asleep at the wheel, or else was taking massive kickbacks.....

Agree with all of the above - and with TC the bank bail out was a bail out of the public - the deposit holders were ultimately joe public - The vast majority to the deposits were placed by institutions - but the institutions were other banks, or credit unions or pension funds - IF Anglo defaulted on this deposits those banks would have defaulted which always brings you back to Joe Public ultimalely whose savings/pension/credit union or whatever was the original source of the money

However there is one point raised by Mullins with which I am in full agreement affraid

At the point where the guarantee was announced it should only have applied to Deposits and probably subordinated debt. There was unsubordinated (high risk - high return) corporate bonds that were also gauranteed - Anyone with money in these was taking a risk - Anyone who bought shares was taking a risk and lost everything - In my view
the same thing should have applied to a large portion of the bondholders they took the risk so they deserve to share the pain - As mullins says live by the sword die by the sword.
The problem was once Lenihan said the bonds were covered he was stuck - because in reality he could then be sued by anyone that lost money after that point - but the gaurantee was rushed and a big trick was missed by giving a parachute to those that were speculative

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