The non EPL thread

[The Puke]

Since I mentioned diversifation yesterday I said I might as well start up a thread for proper association football matters......Could all the EPL/sky monkeys please refrain from posting on this thread as ye have a thread of their own.....I would hope the moderators will delete any muck that is posted on here about the EPL kick and rush dross


To get us started here is an article about the best club side in the world at present

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Masters of the beautiful kill
Barcelona's devotion to total football has taken the class of 2011 to another level, writes Paul Hayward

In Spain's 1-0 win over Colombia at the Santiago Bernabeu stadium on Wednesday, an unwelcome truth engulfed the locals. To the rest of football it has long been obvious that Barcelona are taking over the world. But nobody expected them to take over Real Madrid.

As a second-gear display knocked aside Spain's South American guests, a familiar realisation deepened. The Real players in Vicente del Bosque's World Cup and European Championship winning side were trying to play like their Barcelona colleagues, obediently copying the patterns and angles of the team who, even after last night's shock 1-1 draw with Sporting Gijon, are running away from them in the La Liga title race.

Just before half-time Gerard Pique burst out of a defensive position and chipped the ball over a Colombian head for Andres Iniesta, who jumped, extended a boot and killed its motion with his toe, bringing it back to earth with the gentleness of a boy taking a bird's egg from a nest. A loud clatter of applause ran round the Bernabeu, where the crowd were mostly Madrilenos, and where cheering Barca players is only marginally more appealing than self-immolation.

It takes a powerful force to impose anything on Real Madrid, that fortress of imperious royalism, but even Jose Mourinho, Cristiano Ronaldo and the heritage of nine European Cup triumphs are currently helpless in the face of Barcelona's tiki-taka brilliance. Last week, Pep Guardiola's men struck at Real's soul, surpassing the league record of 15 consecutive wins set by the Madrid team of Di Stefano and Puskas in 1960-'61. No cherished landmark is safe from Lionel Messi and the Blaugrana.

So it falls to Arsenal, often teased as Barcelona-lite, to find a formula that eludes even Mourinho these days. Wednesday's Champions League first-leg tie in London pits the pass masters against the apprentices, with potentially painful consequences for the Gunners. Last season Mourinho's Internazionale broke up Barca's scintillating rhythms but in this year's first Clasico that feat was beyond him.

"Inter made a defensive block around their own penalty area and then counter-attacked really, really quickly," says Fabio Capello, the England coach. "But Real Madrid tried to press Barcelona all over the pitch. Their mentality is to go out and fight Barcelona. But Barca just played through the gaps because they are good enough to do that." Result: Barcelona 5, Real Madrid 0, and a gaping hole in the idea that a side who averaged 70 per cent possession in this term's Champions League group stage can, with tactical forethought, be stopped.

As the Arsenal game approaches, Barcelona are hypnotising their trade. Spain's World Cup winning side contained seven Camp Nou regulars: Carlos Puyol, Pique, Sergio Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Pedro and David Villa (who was on his way from Valencia). Against Colombia, Puyol's absence reduced the Barcelona quota to six but the front four were still there: Xavi, Pedro, Iniesta and Villa. If Messi were Spanish, white flags would rise across the international game.

Back at the club, Guardiola has agreed a new contract until 2012 and June is the completion date for a €9m expansion at La Masia, the training centre/university where the club's aesthetic manifesto is drilled into students. Iniesta, Xavi, Pique, Busquets and Messi are all graduates. On Messi's home continent, meanwhile, Barcelona are linked with the 19-year-old Neymar, the latest Brazilian prospect. Alberto Valentin, the club's chief scout, says: "I can say he fits the profile of a Barcelona player, but that is all I can say."

The conquistadors drive on. Last weekend Messi scored his ninth hat-trick for the club to raise his haul for the season in all competitions to 37 in 31 outings. Sandro Rosell, the club president, bragged: "We have the best player in the world in the best team in the world". Messi looks a certainty to shred last year's personal record of 47 goals in 53 matches. With 15 games left, he is also odds-on to smash the La Liga record of 38 goals in a campaign.

During the 16 consecutive wins (that's 48 points from 48) prior to last night's draw, Barcelona scored 60 times and conceded six. Guardiola says of Messi: "We wouldn't be who we are now without him. We'd still be a good team, but this guy is at a different level. All history's great teams have had a special player and that's what Messi is for us. We are very lucky to have him here when he's still only 23. But Leo also knows that without the rest of the team, he couldn't be what he is now".

'Futbol Club Barcelona is a private and non-profit making sports Catalan Association of natural persons, with its own legal status, constituted on November 29 of the year 1899.' So says the Barca charter, in the English version, which leaves one problem. If only "natural persons" are allowed, where does that leave Messi, the super-flea, or "one-man PlayStation", as Zlatan Ibrahimovic calls him?

FCB also have statutes, delegates, an elected president and a chapel in the tunnel just before the players jog onto the pitch. This facility is doubtless used more by the opposition than the home team.

The Barcelona model is the diametric opposite of the Premier League's highly corporate system of leveraged buy-outs and tycoon ownership. Education, education, education is the foundation of the Barcelona story.

As Xavi said in The Guardian during the week: "Most of our players are from Catalonia and have been here a long time. Education. Players have had 10 or 12 years here, that's the difference. When you arrive at Barcelona, the first thing they teach you is: think. Think, think, think quickly. [Doing the actions] Lift your head up, move your head, see, think. Look before you get the ball. If you're getting this pass, look to see if that guy is free. Pum. First time.

"Look at Busquets. He is the best central midfielder there is playing one-touch. Watch him, you'll see that he doesn't need more. He's controlled, looked and passed in one touch. Some players need two or three touches and these days, given how physically demanding football is and how fast players are, that's too much. That's slow. Look at us: [Dani] Alves, one touch. Iniesta, one touch. Messi, one touch. Pique, one touch. Busi [Busquets], me, seven or eight players with one touch. Fast."

The result: complete mastery of the ball. Barcelona's 70 per cent plus possession in the Champions League eclipses Arsenal's 57 per cent, which itself is hardly shabby.

Their pass accuracy is 84 per cent, Arsenal's 75 per cent. In El Clasico, Guardiola's men completed more than 600 passes. Real failed to reach 300. These maths are not conjured overnight from a desire to impose a bohemian manifesto on the sport. They are the product of 20 years of relentless teaching, of ideology, stretching back to Johan Cruyff and the Dutchification of Barcelona in the early 1990s. Total football has achieved its annexation not on the flatlands of Holland, but on the Mediterranean landscape of Catalonia.

This stunning and game-enriching victory over sterility is not only a Hollywood weepie about education and the power of teaching to inspire. It requires money, too. Barcelona (turnover of €398.1m) are second only to Real Madrid (€438.6m) in the European rich list and are capable of spectacular splurges in the transfer market to supplement the work of La Masia.

Ibrahimovic, who bombed, cost more than €50m. When that failed, Guardiola promptly bought the best centre-forward in Spain: David Villa, who fits the prevailing profile of small men with big talents. Dani Alves and the bench-warming Javier Mascherano also required major outlays.

The average height of Barca's swarming front five is 5ft 7in. "Six years ago I was extinct as a player; footballers like me were in danger of dying out," said Xavi. "It was two metres tall, powerful, in the middle, knock-downs, second balls, rebounds. But now I see Arsenal and Villarreal and they play like we do. I'm a romantic. I like that. I like the fact that talent, technical ability, is now valued above [purely] physical conditions."

With so many diminutive wreckers flashing about, Guardiola uses Busquets and Pique to provide height at corners and set-pieces. Here we see another strength of the first team set-up. Each talent has its counter-weight. The sublime link play of Xavi is complemented by Iniesta's quicker feet, his ability to accelerate the play, shuffle his way through tight spots and dispatch a killer ball too quickly for defenders.

In defence, Puyol's gift for negation is frantic, impassioned. Alongside him, Pique strokes the ball around like an attacking midfielder who has merely dropped back through the team to see what all the fuss is about. 'Piquenbauer', as Catalalans call him, is the most composed centre-back of his generation.

Then the scouting notes go stratospheric with Messi, of whom Roberto Baggio says: "He plays like a child in a playground, unaffected by tactics, team-mates or opponents." In the Barcelona cosmos, Messi sits above the religion of mere endless passing and possession. He is the flourish at the end of it: the beautiful kill.

Observer

[The Puke]

I see the real Ronaldo retired today

I think it is fair to say the finest centre forward of modern times ....Had an excellent career considering and when fit he consistently delivered, the best centre forward I have ever seen play the game....Shame he never won a Champion's league medal, one always wonder how good he would be and how much more of a legacy he would have left behind had he not spent the best part of 4 years of his prime on treatment table.....

247 league goals in 343 league games, 62 goals in 97 games for Brazil

Had everything, pace, power, a super touch, quick feet, a superb finisher and at times a gut for good measure

[Grenvile]

What a great great player he was.. The abuse he has had to take from Corinthian "supporters" isn't a fitting way for such a talent to end his career.. I'll always remember his final goal against United in 2003.. Probably the best striker I have witnessed in my relatively short time.

[Grenvile]

Milan the artists, champions of the beautiful game passing flowing football, sitting pretty at the top of Serie A somehow lose (again) to a kick and rush English team. Surely the biggest upset in the history of club football? Even worse than the two hidings United gave them last year?

Gattuso should have been off for his first strike out at Joe Jordan and will surely face a lengthy ban for the headbutt after the game and the ref completely bottled the Flamini decision, disgraceful tackle. They have a mountain to climb now at White Harte Lane.

[The Puke]

Milan the artists, champions of the beautiful game passing flowing football, sitting pretty at the top of Serie A somehow lose (again) to a kick and rush English team. Surely the biggest upset in the history of club football? Even worse than the two hidings United gave them last year?

Gattuso should have been off for his first strike out at Joe Jordan and will surely face a lengthy ban for the headbutt after the game and the ref completely bottled the Flamini decision, disgraceful tackle. They have a mountain to climb now at White Harte Lane.

Them the breaks, after a good opening 15 minutes from Spurs thought that Milan then got going and got a foothold and from the 40th minute on bossed the game, fair play to Spurs they worked very hard and deserved something for the endevours tonight but AC will be disappoint that Lennon was allowed run 50 yards with only one tackle put in.....Can't really remember a save the AC keeper had to make while Gomez made a couple of top class saves second half......Ambrosini and Pirlo were sadly lacking in midfield for Milan as Seedorf gave them no direction whatsoever...Actually thought 0-0 wouldn't be the worst result for AC as they have a decenr defense and would have fancied them to keep a clean sheet at WHL but now they will have to chase the game, they will need an early goal that is for sure but it is Spurs to lose


Gattuso was spoiling for a row all evening but Jordan was every bit as culpable in the second incident....

[Boxtyeater]

Gattuso should have been off for his first strike out at Joe Jordan and will surely face a lengthy ban for the headbutt after the game and the ref completely bottled the Flamini decision, disgraceful tackle. They have a mountain to climb now at White Harte Lane.

Joe must be a good age now, fair play to him for sticking at it.

[Grenvile]

Gattuso should have been off for his first strike out at Joe Jordan and will surely face a lengthy ban for the headbutt after the game and the ref completely bottled the Flamini decision, disgraceful tackle. They have a mountain to climb now at White Harte Lane.

Joe must be a good age now, fair play to him for sticking at it.

Wrong Joey Jordan.. I think the Joey Jordan fighting with Gattuso was former Cavan and Lavey corner back... His reputation took off after Lavey won the intermediate title last year and Spurs offered him a position.. Brother Stephen gave away the penalty to Tyrone last Wednesday night and saw the line. I'm open to correction on that though..

[Boxtyeater]

Trust the Anglo Celt to get mixed up again....

[Grenvile]

G'wan the Gooners! Barca are human after all it appears.. With the second leg at the Nou Camp Barcelona would still be my favourites to go through but it will make for an interesting game. What a gem of a player Jack Wilshere is, very brave performance form him tonight against the best midfield in the world. Far more stomach for the fight than Fabregas.

[Boxtyeater]

Puke probably feels the weather/lighting/pitch/food/sausages or something didn't suit Barca.....

Cue raft of excuses for abysmal performance from Spanish "giants"....

[Grenvile]

Balotelli playing in the Euro-Disney cup 0-0 lastnight, I wonder if he knows who Jack Wilshere Man of the Match against Xavi and Iniesta is now?

[Boxtyeater]

Balotelli playing in the Euro-Disney cup 0-0 lastnight, I wonder if he knows who Jack Wilshere Man of the Match against Xavi and Iniesta is now?

He's a player I assume?? Sounds like a make of pasta, but if you say so.....He's not one of the Kildallen Balotellis then I take it.

[mugsys_barber]

This was a great result for the Gooners tonight, Maybe this team have finally come of age. It will be a big ask to beat Barca in the Nou camp, Key to this will be trying to keep Nasri, Fabregas and most importantly Van Persie fit over the next few weeks. A decent centre half alongside Kocienly and Asrenal would be a decent outfit. Its such a pity Vermaelen is still crocked Could be doing with him in the return leg.

[patrique]

Balotelli playing in the Euro-Disney cup 0-0 lastnight, I wonder if he knows who Jack Wilshere Man of the Match against Xavi and Iniesta is now?

Football Quiz question.

Who are the only club, having played for over 40 years in European football, not to have lost at home in European ties?

PS: That lad tonight, Wiltshire, is that the bloke Mario never heard off?

I can see why. A really poor Messi nearly had a hat trick and created the winner. What is Wiltshire's first name again?

Oh, the second leg will be 1-1.

England's turn to win this trophy again, or is it Germany's? Can't remember.

[Grenvile]

Balotelli playing in the Euro-Disney cup 0-0 lastnight, I wonder if he knows who Jack Wilshere Man of the Match against Xavi and Iniesta is now?

He's a player I assume?? Sounds like a make of pasta, but if you say so.....He's not one of the Kildallen Balotellis then I take it.

Yes he's just one of Man City's non playing non scoring 30 odd million strikers. One of the one's the team captain said he wanted to punch in the face. Claimed not to know who Jack Wilshere was but that he would look out for him. I'd say he was watching tonight, City players would never have much to do on a Wednesday. Then again he thinks himself Dzeko and Tevez are a better partnership than Barcelona's Pedro, Messi and Villa so he might not just be the full shilling..

Febregas' comments tonight would be disappointing for Arsenal fans saying he considered Barca to be "The best football team of all time".. Surely not what you want to hear from your captain when you have a slight advantage at halftime in a tie??

[Guest]

Not one mention about diego buonnotte... shameful

[Jayo Cluxton]

Well Puke - what say you now?

As we are not allowed mention the EPL on this thread what did you think of 'the short spike or spiked wheel that attaches to the heel of a rider's boot and is used to urge a horse forward's' performance in the San Siro? Dumping the Italian
giants in their own backyard - leaving their captain behaving like a spoiled brat! And don't get me going on Zlatan!

Then last night we had the 'place of storage or a magazine containing arms and military equipment' beating the mighty Barca. So much for the EPL being inferior to the continentals!

[Thomas Clarke]

I fear there are a few on here who are a bit too quick to write Barca's obituary. Arsenal played well last night, probably as well as they possibly can, and yet they were still very fortunate to come away with a 2-1 win at home. Barca had a goal disallowed and 2 penalties denied, and that with Messi and Iniesta off-colour. Arsenal are still very much up against it in the 2nd leg, and my money would be on the Puke's boys going through.

Credit where it is due though, Arsenal had some very good performers, most notably Nasri and, in particular, Koscielny, and they would have been a match for any side in Europe last night. Arsenal pressed them very high up the field and, though the tactic cost the the goal, it generally paid off, as they stopped Messi getting the space he thrives on.

Bacra, on the other hand, didn't seem to fire in the 2nd half, and Guardiola's substitution of Villa for Keita looks a strange one, especially as the game was opening up for Barca to hit the Gunners on the counter.

Still all to play for at the Camp Nou.

[Jayo Cluxton]

No obituary here - still the best team in Europe by a country mile and hot favs to go through - but you never know - Arsenal are really good on the break ...

[Grenvile]

I fear there are a few on here who are a bit too quick to write Barca's obituary. Arsenal played well last night, probably as well as they possibly can, and yet they were still very fortunate to come away with a 2-1 win at home. Barca had a goal disallowed and 2 penalties denied, and that with Messi and Iniesta off-colour. Arsenal are still very much up against it in the 2nd leg, and my money would be on the Puke's boys going through.

Credit where it is due though, Arsenal had some very good performers, most notably Nasri and, in particular, Koscielny, and they would have been a match for any side in Europe last night. Arsenal pressed them very high up the field and, though the tactic cost the the goal, it generally paid off, as they stopped Messi getting the space he thrives on.

Bacra, on the other hand, didn't seem to fire in the 2nd half, and Guardiola's substitution of Villa for Keita looks a strange one, especially as the game was opening up for Barca to hit the Gunners on the counter.

Still all to play for at the Camp Nou.

I'd agree with most of that TC except for saying Nasri played well, he did well going forward for the last goal but shirked his defensive duties and left Clichy open several times, if he doesn't do better in the Nou Camp Arsenal will pay.
For me the best player on the pitch lastnight was Wilshere. Barca still heavy favourites to go through but if Pique and Puyol are out Arsenal will have a great chance to get a goal and if they can score they have a chance. The Spurs tie is far from over too.

[The Puke]

Half time ladies and gentlemen, half time.....

[Thomas Clarke]

What a great great player he was.. The abuse he has had to take from Corinthian "supporters" isn't a fitting way for such a talent to end his career.. I'll always remember his final goal against United in 2003.. Probably the best striker I have witnessed in my relatively short time.

In his fascinating book 'Futebol: The Brazilian way of life', Alex Bellos describes how 'The Hawks of the Faithful', Corinthians' supporters club, ambushed and attacked the team bus after a game a few years ago. It was organised like a military operation, and only the arrival of more level-headed supporters stopped the incident becoming a disaster. A superstar like Ronaldo was always likely to be a target for abuse when things went wrong.

Ronaldo was a brilliant footballer. I remember watching the 1994 world cup finals, when he was in the Brazilian squad as a 17 year old. Myself and the old fella were disappointed that we never got to see him in that tournament, as we were intrigued as to how good he must be to make the Brazilian squad at 17. We didn't have to wait long to find out. For the next 3-4 years he was the best footballer in the world. Blistering pace, strength, skill, and a prolific goalscorer - he had everything. Steve McManaman, on the BBC website today, rates him as 'way, way better' than the likes of Henry, Klinsmann or even Van Basten, and it is hard to disagree.

His finest hour, the 2002 World Cup, came after 2 awful knee injuries and weight problems, but he still came back to score more goals in a single World Cup finals than anyone else has in almost 40 years.

Brazilians will never respect him like they do Pele, or love him as they do Garrincha, but Ronaldo was certainly among the very best that their country ever produced.

[patrique]

I think Barcelona need to buy someone, maybe the "World Young Player of the Year" or someone like that.

PS: No one answer that question yet about the ONLY team unbeaten at home after more than 40 years playing in Europe?

I will give ye a clue. The managed to draw 0-0 with one of England's super clubs the other night. (of course they were expected to win, I mean they destroyed the holders Athletico Madrid in their last home game but......)

[bocerty]

What a great great player he was.. The abuse he has had to take from Corinthian "supporters" isn't a fitting way for such a talent to end his career.. I'll always remember his final goal against United in 2003.. Probably the best striker I have witnessed in my relatively short time.

In his fascinating book 'Futebol: The Brazilian way of life', Alex Bellos describes how 'The Hawks of the Faithful', Corinthians' supporters club, ambushed and attacked the team bus after a game a few years ago. It was organised like a military operation, and only the arrival of more level-headed supporters stopped the incident becoming a disaster. A superstar like Ronaldo was always likely to be a target for abuse when things went wrong.

Ronaldo was a brilliant footballer. I remember watching the 1994 world cup finals, when he was in the Brazilian squad as a 17 year old. Myself and the old fella were disappointed that we never got to see him in that tournament, as we were intrigued as to how good he must be to make the Brazilian squad at 17. We didn't have to wait long to find out. For the next 3-4 years he was the best footballer in the world. Blistering pace, strength, skill, and a prolific goalscorer - he had everything. Steve McManaman, on the BBC website today, rates him as 'way, way better' than the likes of Henry, Klinsmann or even Van Basten, and it is hard to disagree.

His finest hour, the 2002 World Cup, came after 2 awful knee injuries and weight problems, but he still came back to score more goals in a single World Cup finals than anyone else has in almost 40 years.

Brazilians will never respect him like they do Pele, or love him as they do Garrincha, but Ronaldo was certainly among the very best that their country ever produced.

watched a show on Sky the other night called Footballs Greatest (most of those on it werent great at all but thats another story)mand it profiled Ronaldo - its easy to forget how good he was. What stood out most was his blistering pace and his close control and quick feet. His scoring record was unbelievable no matter where he went he got goals.

It was interesting to hear the Galacticos or assholes as i prefer to call them didnt approve of him during his time at Real Madrid, Raul in particular didnt get on with him because of his partying and lifestyle. Imagine what he would have been like had he taken it seriously.

A truly wonderful footballer

[patrique]

Arsenal are a bit like Paul McCartney, getting excited over one leg.

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