Bring back skill!!!

Jayo Cluxton wrote:I think the emphasis is now on conditioning and fitness rather than skill - that's all ...

A guy is more liable to get picked cos he is 6" 4' and 15 stone than a nippy little corner forward ...

i fully agree Jayo not sure what it is like in other provinces but in Ulster the conditions set out for choosing footballers is way of the mark.

Its all to do with bench presses, vertical jumps, speed over 100metres and core strength. Nobody seems to mind that these guys wouldnt catch a cold couldnt kick snow of a rope or couldnt score in a womens prison with 20 fags and a bottle of vodka.

Its utter bullshit but the problem is everyone seems to be at it now like it was some craze. Even read recently were a team particpiating in the Feile football competition which is roughly under 14, had a dietician with them at the most recent Feile in Derry, doesnt bode well for the future.

Its a bit like the recession unless we get back to basics and back to doing things with a ball as opposed to 400m sprints the game of gaelic is fooked!!!

Jayo Cluxton wrote:I think the emphasis is now on conditioning and fitness rather than skill - that's all ...

A guy is more liable to get picked cos he is 6" 4' and 15 stone than a nippy little corner forward ...

So you see speed as a skill? How is it any more of a skill than being strong?

Boc think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make.
Football is a simple game been made very complicated in the last 10 years.
It is fundamentally about catching a kicking a ball.
As alluded to by other posters it is now about diets, bench presses, 400metre sprints, bleep test, body fat tests and so on wheres the ball?.
As regards a feile team having a dietician (it is an U14 competition) that is so OTT it is scary.
Was involved in a forum on development squads a few years ago and the amount of trip been sprouted on about gym work and beefing up the upper body strength rather than ball skill was a real eye-opener this was kids 14/15/16, sorry these kids aren't fully developed and don'y know there own bodies and we are meant to.
Have to admit there was a lot of lone voices in the crowd looking from that point of view the rest were on about making them look like Rambo (can't remember seeing him collect a Celtic cross)
We are gone down this road for a number of reasons I think,
1. We have a professional set up so we can rival other sports. Amateurs come good and anything they can do we can do better
2. The need to "break the tackle" with size and strength rather than the elusive side step (a skill in itself) that players like Red Barry,Cooper and B. Mcguigan use (these players are in the minority)
3. Unwritten rule that an intercounty team has to be over 6 foot in every position (Cork spring to mind)
4. Turn over of players, no such thing as a 10/15 year inter-county career any more.
5. Winning is the be all and end all right down to U8/10/12.

Really think we need a change in perspective and to me that is a focus to what nurtures and develops skill -- the Club.
People probably pissed off at me harping on about it but if we switch the emphasis back to the club by reducing the amount of inter-county tripe on display I think the skill level will rise.

RMDrive wrote:

Jayo Cluxton wrote:I think the emphasis is now on conditioning and fitness rather than skill - that's all ...

A guy is more liable to get picked cos he is 6" 4' and 15 stone than a nippy little corner forward ...

So you see speed as a skill? How is it any more of a skill than being strong?

You are getting semantic or pedantic RM!!! Nippy is meant in the context of elusive and .... skilful. My opinion is that the game has become more for athletes than footballers (my opinion). I prefer to watch good footballers - my preference. Nothing wrong with being strong - it ultimately stopped Charles Atlas getting sand kicked in their face ....

JimWexford wrote:Boc think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make.
Football is a simple game been made very complicated in the last 10 years.
It is fundamentally about catching a kicking a ball.
As alluded to by other posters it is now about diets, bench presses, 400metre sprints, bleep test, body fat tests and so on wheres the ball?.
As regards a feile team having a dietician (it is an U14 competition) that is so OTT it is scary.
Was involved in a forum on development squads a few years ago and the amount of trip been sprouted on about gym work and beefing up the upper body strength rather than ball skill was a real eye-opener this was kids 14/15/16, sorry these kids aren't fully developed and don'y know there own bodies and we are meant to.
Have to admit there was a lot of lone voices in the crowd looking from that point of view the rest were on about making them look like Rambo (can't remember seeing him collect a Celtic cross)
We are gone down this road for a number of reasons I think,
1. We have a professional set up so we can rival other sports. Amateurs come good and anything they can do we can do better
2. The need to "break the tackle" with size and strength rather than the elusive side step (a skill in itself) that players like Red Barry,Cooper and B. Mcguigan use (these players are in the minority)
3. Unwritten rule that an intercounty team has to be over 6 foot in every position (Cork spring to mind)
4. Turn over of players, no such thing as a 10/15 year inter-county career any more.
5. Winning is the be all and end all right down to U8/10/12.

Really think we need a change in perspective and to me that is a focus to what nurtures and develops skill -- the Club.
People probably pissed off at me harping on about it but if we switch the emphasis back to the club by reducing the amount of inter-county tripe on display I think the skill level will rise.

Sorry Jim wasnt been pedantic i just think the term catch and kick is more associated with 30 years ago, the term perhaps needs adjusted slightly when dealing with modern day youth players, and there are guys in fairness who are trying to bring that element back into youth football but to me the approach is the same as what it was back then 'hit and hope'. All to often the ball into the forwards is a nonsense ball in that you have a small forward up against a much taller defender and the ball in is a high raking ball which favours the defender. Coaches need to be cuter now and much more precise in the instructions given to players.

And Jim dont apologise for harping on about something you feel strongly about and something which is ultimately right - we need to change our focus and do it rapidly if we want to hang on to our best players and develop more good ones in the future. If only more coaches would coach with long terms plans in mind than short terms gains!!!!

bocerty wrote:[Sorry Jim wasnt been pedantic i just think the term catch and kick is more associated with 30 years ago, the term perhaps needs adjusted slightly when dealing with modern day youth players, and there are guys in fairness who are trying to bring that element back into youth football but to me the approach is the same as what it was back then 'hit and hope'. All to often the ball into the forwards is a nonsense ball in that you have a small forward up against a much taller defender and the ball in is a high raking ball which favours the defender.

The skill comes in delivering a fast low ball into space for your own man to gather. Proper coaching ensures that everyone knows his colleagues style and when to make the burst for the ball. Some guys make take a solo or a hop and then his team mate 40 yds. away knows when to leave the blocks and knows what's coming...Galway 63/66 were excellent exponents of this with what must have been one of the smallest forward lines of the last 60 years, Mattie Mac excluded.

I agree with Jim as well, although not with everything obviously. There just has to be change and from the bottom up, for it'll never come from the top down.
Here is the place for us to vent our views and argue our opinions...RMD will prepare a sort of a "white paper" on the matter in time for Congress next year and by Congress 2012 Jim will have our registration approved, which will enable us get out motions onto the famed Clár...
In the meantime, I'll round up Tommy Kenoy, Frank Murphy and a few more who'll drive our proposals through....

JimWexford wrote:
Was involved in a forum on development squads a few years ago and the amount of trip been sprouted on about gym work and beefing up the upper body strength rather than ball skill was a real eye-opener this was kids 14/15/16, sorry these kids aren't fully developed and don'y know there own bodies and we are meant to.
Have to admit there was a lot of lone voices in the crowd looking from that point of view the rest were on about making them look like Rambo (can't remember seeing him collect a Celtic cross)

Sorry Jim to nitpick at one point in your post, but I feel it's worth me adding my input on this.

As regards weightlifting and young teenagers with who have not fully grown, there is no harm or con despite the common myth purporting that "lifting heavy weights at a young age stunts growth/causes injuries etc", as long as proper technique is followed. There have been numerous case studies outlining this (which I don't care to find to be honest).

As for making them look like Rambo, maybe that's an exaggeration, but I know grown men that have been training hard for years, with the correct rest and nutrition, and still do not look remotely like Rambo.

And this is for all the "more mature" posters on this thread, but lifting weights as part of Gaelic games, and all sports, has been around for decades. It's not a recent phenomenon. Sure look at Pat Spillane (I know ye'll all come back and say he was one of the first "athletes" in the game) and Jack O' Shea, they both used to lift weight. I also remember reading somewhere that Mick O' Connell used to do box jumps (vertical jump onto a box from a standing start) from a squatting position and would catch a ball at the top of the movement after he'd kick it up against the gable wall. This, in my opinion, is both practising a skill (high fielding) as well as practising an exercise (high jumps, greater leg power). The methods have changed, but the goals are still the same - to have a competitive edge on your opponent.

According to me esteemed fellow posters the following are the main skills of football ... FIELDING, DEFENDING, KICKING, SCORING, SOLOING.

FIELDING
The skill has probably disappeared a bit all right. Probably in part due to the fact that lumping high balls up the field as far as possible (Boc's point) isn't used as a tactic any more, as well as the fact that one on one contests for high balls are rare things. I think the mark from the kick-out is a good idea.

DEFENDING
This skill has developed greatly IMO. There are some absolutely fantastic defenders out there at the moment. Lads who can mark their man tightly, cover space and be one step ahead of the attackers. No need to do anything here.

KICKING
There's less kicking but I'm not so sure that the quality has gone down as much as people think. Fitter and faster players means that space and time are very limited. This means in turn that kick passes must be more accurate than they needed to be in the past. Players will naturally take the least risky way of delivering the ball to a team-mate. The fist pass is more accurate than the foot pass and always has been. I'd like to see how things develop over the next few years. I think that teams are going to look to move players away from the ball and that the long foot pass over the top of the blanket defence to the fee man will become flavour of the month.

SCORING
LAds are less likely to take a punt from 40-50 metres out these days. I think it's mainly down to confidence and coaching. Again teams will play the percentages. There is a better chance of a score from closer in so teams will pass on the longer range chances in favour of working it closer. Don't know if something is required here or not.

SOLOING
Nothing has changed here.

RMDrive wrote:According to me esteemed fellow posters the following are the main skills of football ... FIELDING, DEFENDING, KICKING, SCORING, SOLOING.

DEFENDING
This skill has developed greatly IMO. There are some absolutely fantastic defenders out there at the moment. Lads who can mark their man tightly, cover space and be one step ahead of the attackers. No need to do anything here.

RMD is clearly (as his entitlement as Mod) grasping the mantle as our delegate to Congress 2012.
On the downside, his concept of defending, as per the rule, is clearly skewed. The country today lacks the quality of defender (anticipation, pace, positioning, ability and cunning) that was so exemplified by the likes of Down's Tom O'Hare, Dublin's Robbie Kelleher, Meath's Robbie O'Malley and Kerry's Paidi O'Sé...
Defending is a unique skill, requiring talent,fitness, pace, anticipation and bravery....In the modern era, the younger O'Sés' won POTY for their efforts, in no small way aligned to their innate ability to surge forward, play the clever ball or score themselves...Talented, wonderfully so, but by their forays, not defenders...

We have time RMD to get our pitch right.....use it wisely...

Boxtyeater wrote:

RMDrive wrote:According to me esteemed fellow posters the following are the main skills of football ... FIELDING, DEFENDING, KICKING, SCORING, SOLOING.

DEFENDING
This skill has developed greatly IMO. There are some absolutely fantastic defenders out there at the moment. Lads who can mark their man tightly, cover space and be one step ahead of the attackers. No need to do anything here.

RMD is clearly (as his entitlement as Mod) grasping the mantle as our delegate to Congress 2012.
On the downside, his concept of defending, as per the rule, is clearly skewed. The country today lacks the quality of defender (anticipation, pace, positioning, ability and cunning) that was so exemplified by the likes of Down's Tom O'Hare, Dublin's Robbie Kelleher, Meath's Robbie O'Malley and Kerry's Paidi O'Sé...
Defending is a unique skill, requiring talent,fitness, pace, anticipation and bravery....In the modern era, the younger O'Sés' won POTY for their efforts, in no small way aligned to their innate ability to surge forward, play the clever ball or score themselves...Talented, wonderfully so, but by their forays, not defenders...

We have time RMD to get our pitch right.....use it wisely...

The eloquence is gone I'm afraid so this will be pretty rough. The quality of defenders is proportional to the quality of atttackers. Karl Lacey is a defender (although less so this yeary(.

I don't see how so many people these days can lump it all together and call "defending" a skill. In my opinion this has only come about in the last decade.

Is "attacking" a skill if "defending" is?

Something that grabbed my attention during the International Rules last night is that we are not able to tackle as well as the Australians. That's obvious enough, as the tackle rule comes from Aussie Rules. However, we have our own skill in our code, blocking the ball, which wasn't once used last night, as far as I can remember. And we were in a position to do so many's the time. When I was younger and first started going to football training, blocking drills were an integral part of our training. Is it still the case can anyone that trains underage tell me???

You see more blocking of a ball in club games these days than intercounty games, and if it's a good block where the player defending jumps full-stretch to block the kick it's a great boost to your team and usually gets a roar from the crowd. I'd like to see more of it.

3inarow08 wrote:I don't see how so many people these days can lump it all together and call "defending" a skill. In my opinion this has only come about in the last decade.

Is "attacking" a skill if "defending" is?

Something that grabbed my attention during the International Rules last night is that we are not able to tackle as well as the Australians. That's obvious enough, as the tackle rule comes from Aussie Rules. However, we have our own skill in our code, blocking the ball, which wasn't once used last night, as far as I can remember. And we were in a position to do so many's the time. When I was younger and first started going to football training, blocking drills were an integral part of our training. Is it still the case can anyone that trains underage tell me???

You see more blocking of a ball in club games these days than intercounty games, and if it's a good block where the player defending jumps full-stretch to block the kick it's a great boost to your team and usually gets a roar from the crowd. I'd like to see more of it.

i do recall Canty making one great block in the dying minutes - but i appreciate were your coming from Triona - its certainly as big a boost as a score to see a team mate block a ball but it does seem to be a dying skill as well

He did Boc - but it went to an Aussie unfortunately!

RMDrive wrote:Very harsh comments on Hughes. He has brilliant balance, is completely comfortable on the ball, can take a score and is a leader and motivator for his team. I will certainly remember him in 2016 but probably won't be around in 2060.

Ask most GAA followers in the county about Danny Hughes and the answer will be "Class, sheer unadulterated classy player, one of the best ever, if not the best.

Played for years for Queen's, Ballycran, Down and Ulster, one of the best and most skillful mid fielders in Ireland.

Selected for the combined universities team, Danny Hughes is a Down hurling legend".

The football one? Don't even know what club he plays for.

All you have to do is ask and we'll tell you!

Well?

Who does he play for, without benefit of google or whatever?