Re: The Premier League

Guest Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:43 pm

Jayo Cluxton wrote:Samin - to be honest I have never been sold on the man's genius at all. Crossmaglen have won all but one of the last 12/13 county titles. Are the manager/s a genius or has he just had the best players. United had the cream of the crop for a good decade with little or no opposition. Where it does matter - Europe - they had minimal success - despite their domestic dominance.

Agh come on Jayo, when Ferguson took over Utd they had just avoided relegation, he slowly built his team before finally winning his first trophy in 1990. Much of Utd spending power came through money generated by success, he brought through loads of good young players building a team around them and managed to hold onto them for so long. The main reason UTD had the cream of the crop was down to him and his achievements. Some people points to his record in Europe as some form of criticism, i dont think 3 finals, winning two is by any means a poor return for any club in approx 18 seasons in europes main competition. Not sure about this but has any other club bettered that by far, prob AC Milan and Real Madrid thats about it.

Guest Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:51 pm

just had a look there, only Barcelona and Real Madrid have won more champions league. both on 3. Utd are on 2 along with AC Milan. Clearly not an easy competition to win now matter how big the club

**Jayo Cluxton** Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:58 pm

Jonsmith wrote:You're contradicting yourself here something serious Jayo. First you say United have a poor squad. Everyone that was in the CL winning squad and got to the 2009 final are still there out from Ronaldo. But then you say Fergie was successful because he had the best players? So which is it?

Regarding the Tevez argument: He was offered a contract at what he had asked. He felt this did not come in time and didn't feel wanted and left ie: City had came in to over pay for him and he went for the big money pay off.

Jaysus JS - Tevez is gone as well as Ronaldo, Rooney may be going and Hargreaves has hardly played a game in 2 years. Scholes is hardly there for the next 5 years and Carrick ain't the answer. But if you think these lads will get to a CL final fair play to you - I don't. There has been a big change in United (on and off the pitch sinice 2008). The Italians and Spanish have improved and have the money again - especially the Spaniards. United were embarrassed by Barca last year in the final. Barca, Real, Inter and others have improved - United have gone the other way.

I said Fergue had almost a decade of domestic dominance - and delivered NO success in Europe. Check it out.

As for Tevez leaving - he was offered better money and left. Something Ferguson did to prise any amount of players from other clubs over the years - no big deal. Shearer about the only one to resist. Probably why Keane hated him ...

**Jayo Cluxton** Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:03 am

Sorry Samin - you may be right. I am probably swayed by hearing Utd fans constantly saying they are the best club in the world. Whereas you rightly point out that they have been the best club in just Europe on a mere 3 occasions in 55 years ... Jaysus the Dubs have a better record than that ...

Ferguson's best United side were at their peak when Italian football was on the floor and Spanish not much better........

**OMAR** Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:07 am

It should be noted that this is the same SAF that advised that he would leave Ronaldo cutting grass or sitting in the stand or something along those lines rather than sell him to a shower of $$$$$ like Real Madrid.

**Jayo Cluxton** Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:11 am

Find the Scots manager - nine years at the helm - record below. Money not a factor here. Only 3 European Cups (in 5 years). Answers on a postcard .....

First Division
Champions: 1975–76, 1976–77, 1978–79, 1979–80, 1981–82, 1982–83
Runners-up: 1974–75, 1977–78
European Cup
Winners: 1977, 1978, 1981
UEFA Cup
Winners: 1976
FA Cup
Runners-up: 1977
Football League Cup
Winners: 1981, 1982, 1983
Runners-up: 1978
European Super Cup
Winners: 1977
Runners-up: 1978
FA Charity Shield
Winners: 1976, 1979, 1980, 1982

**Grenvile** Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:12 am

Jayo Cluxton wrote:
Jonsmith wrote:You're contradicting yourself here something serious Jayo. First you say United have a poor squad. Everyone that was in the CL winning squad and got to the 2009 final are still there out from Ronaldo. But then you say Fergie was successful because he had the best players? So which is it?

Regarding the Tevez argument: He was offered a contract at what he had asked. He felt this did not come in time and didn't feel wanted and left ie: City had came in to over pay for him and he went for the big money pay off.

Jaysus JS - Tevez is gone as well as Ronaldo, Rooney may be going and Hargreaves has hardly played a game in 2 years. Scholes is hardly there for the next 5 years and Carrick ain't the answer. But if you think these lads will get to a CL final fair play to you - I don't. There has been a big change in United (on and off the pitch sinice 2008). The Italians and Spanish have improved and have the money again - especially the Spaniards. United were embarrassed by Barca last year in the final. Barca, Real, Inter and others have improved - United have gone the other way.

I said Fergue had almost a decade of domestic dominance - and delivered NO success in Europe. Check it out.

As for Tevez leaving - he was offered better money and left. Something Ferguson did to prise any amount of players from other clubs over the years - no big deal. Shearer about the only one to resist. Probably why Keane hated him ...

You're avoiding the issue Jayo, Ronaldo was the only starting player who has gone! Tevez was a bit part player.
You say Fergie had the best talent available to him and couldn't win, yet with the supposedly poor players that you say cannot cut it to challenge for the PL he reached consecutive CL finals, which is it?
Your trying to put words in my mouth I'm not saying what these lads will do and certainly not saying they will win a Champions League, I'm telling you the facts of what they have done I'm not speculating as to what they will do.

**OMAR** Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:12 am

Jayo Cluxton wrote:Find the Scots manager - nine years at the helm - record below. Money not a factor here. Only 3 European Cups (in 5 years). Answers on a postcard .....

First Division
Champions: 1975–76, 1976–77, 1978–79, 1979–80, 1981–82, 1982–83
Runners-up: 1974–75, 1977–78
European Cup
Winners: 1977, 1978, 1981
UEFA Cup
Winners: 1976
FA Cup
Runners-up: 1977
Football League Cup
Winners: 1981, 1982, 1983

Big REV IAN ?

Runners-up: 1978
European Super Cup
Winners: 1977
Runners-up: 1978
FA Charity Shield
Winners: 1976, 1979, 1980, 1982

**Jayo Cluxton** Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:20 am

Jonsmith wrote:[You're avoiding the issue Jayo, Ronaldo was the only starting player who has gone! Tevez was a bit part player.

Sorry JS - you will have to explain - Tevez started, finished and scored a peno in the 2008 Final. Where is the bit part there??? scratch

**Grenvile** Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:29 am

Jayo Cluxton wrote:
Jonsmith wrote:[You're avoiding the issue Jayo, Ronaldo was the only starting player who has gone! Tevez was a bit part player.

Sorry JS - you will have to explain - Tevez started, finished and scored a peno in the 2008 Final. Where is the bit part there???

Apologies I was thinking of 2009 when he was only making appearances from the bench.

And also, Paisley inherited a fantastic side. Fergie built United into the biggest club in the world.

**Jayo Cluxton** Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:30 am

A good few of the 2009 team that were totally outplayed by Barca are still there - honest obs after

Edwin van der Sar (40 in a fortnight)
John O'Shea (limited)
Rio Ferdinand
Nemanja Vidić
Patrice Evra (gone downhill)
Anderson (failure)
Michael Carrick (average)
Ryan Giggs (37 next month)
Park Ji-Sung (average)
Wayne Rooney (going)
Cristiano Ronaldo (gone)

**patrique** Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:51 am

samin10 wrote:
Jayo Cluxton wrote:Disagree Samin. If he had his eyes open he'd be well gone. No money, best players sold, club in debt - and he backs the Glazers constantly. Would that not make you wonder?

ps Aye Boxty - he was a character alright. I would've thought P would have started a thread for Big Mal .....

I'd say he announced his retirement a few years ago then changed his mind after getting a bank account statement, i would say that being the manager he knows the ins and outs of the financial situation at Utd and he knows better than anyone that the opportunity is there to continue at the top with utd.

Im sure if it was just money he was interested in he could have announced his retirement. Sat on his ass for a few months then walked into a top job like Man City, Chelsea or even England where he would be paid a fortune, have loads of money to spend and have a great chance of success

Alex Ferguson at Chelsea or Man City. Are you having a laugh. All the man has done for years is win the premiership. Chelsea already sacked a better manager because all he did was win the premiership, and two or 3 FA bloody cups. Roman paid all that money for success, and the Sheik is paying out for success. Winning the premiership is not seen as success anymore, bit like being Ulster football champions.

**patrique** Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:59 am

Jonsmith wrote:
Jayo Cluxton wrote:Samin - to be honest I have never been sold on the man's genius at all. Crossmaglen have won all but one of the last 12/13 county titles. Are the manager/s a genius or has he just had the best players. United had the cream of the crop for a good decade with little or no opposition. Where it does matter - Europe - they had minimal success - despite their domestic dominance.

You're contradicting yourself here something serious Jayo. First you say United have a poor squad. Everyone that was in the CL winning squad

Regarding the Tevez argument: He was offered a contract at what he had asked. He felt this did not come in time and didn't feel wanted and left ie: City had came in to over pay for him and he went for the big money pay off.

AMAZING. In 2007 United signed Tevez from West Ham, just as I had been telling people that Tevez was the best player in the league. When United signed him, I said immediately that they could finally win in Europe. They did, albeit somewhat fortuitously, but they did survive 120 minutes against arguably the best side in Europe for a few seasons to get to the shoot out. Not their fault Terry slipped after Chelsea dominated the last 75 minutes.

However I digress, Tevez was in that squad. You forgot about him, and then give us Pinoccio fergusons guff about his sale.

The individual who owned Tevez wanted 25 million. United had just spent 20 million RENTING him for two years. But by summer 2009 where would United find 25 million? End off.

**patrique** Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:01 am

samin10 wrote:
Jayo Cluxton wrote:Samin - to be honest I have never been sold on the man's genius at all. Crossmaglen have won all but one of the last 12/13 county titles. Are the manager/s a genius or has he just had the best players. United had the cream of the crop for a good decade with little or no opposition. Where it does matter - Europe - they had minimal success - despite their domestic dominance.

Agh come on Jayo, when Ferguson took over Utd they had just avoided relegation, he slowly built his team before finally winning his first trophy in 1990. Much of Utd spending power came through money generated by success, he brought through loads of good young players building a team around them and managed to hold onto them for so long. The main reason UTD had the cream of the crop was down to him and his achievements. Some people points to his record in Europe as some form of criticism, i dont think 3 finals, winning two is by any means a poor return for any club in approx 18 seasons in europes main competition. Not sure about this but has any other club bettered that by far, prob AC Milan and Real Madrid thats about it.

Narrowly avoided relegation just before Fergie. I seem to remember them being about 8 points clear at the top and they didn't slip that much.

They narrowly avoided relegation AFTER Fergie took over, but after 7 years he won the league.

And he was great at Aberdeen.

**patrique** Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:05 am

samin10 wrote:just had a look there, only Barcelona and Real Madrid have won more champions league. both on 3. Utd are on 2 along with AC Milan. Clearly not an easy competition to win now matter how big the club

real Madrid have won 9. Liverpool 5, Milan have 7.

Underachievers like the famous Barcelona now have 3, but they and the Inters and Reals and Liverpools were also winning the UEFA cup when it closely resembled todays CL as the 2nd, 3rd and 4th placed teams were all in it.

And United were the best resourced and richest club in the world and Fergie got TWO fortuitous wins in 24 years.

Do you think Mancini will still be managing Man City in 2033 if the sheik is still pouring in money and they have won two CLs?

**patrique** Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:09 am

[quote="Jonsmith"]

Jayo Cluxton wrote:
Jonsmith wrote:[You're avoiding the issue Jayo, Ronaldo was the only starting player who has gone! Tevez was a bit part player.

Sorry JS - you will have to explain - Tevez started, finished and scored a peno in the 2008 Final. Where is the bit part there???

Apologies I was thinking of 2009 when he was only making appearances from the bench.

And that is why they were OUTCLASSED.

Should have known Fergie was senile then. Losing Ronaldo and Tevez Smacks of......losing Rooney as well smacks of.....carelessness?

Guest Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:50 am

patrique wrote:
samin10 wrote:just had a look there, only Barcelona and Real Madrid have won more champions league. both on 3. Utd are on 2 along with AC Milan. Clearly not an easy competition to win now matter how big the club

real Madrid have won 9. Liverpool 5, Milan have 7.

Underachievers like the famous Barcelona now have 3, but they and the Inters and Reals and Liverpools were also winning the UEFA cup when it closely resembled todays CL as the 2nd, 3rd and 4th placed teams were all in it.

.And United were the best resourced and richest club in the world and Fergie got TWO fortuitous wins in 24 years

Do you think Mancini will still be managing Man City in 2033 if the sheik is still pouring in money and they have won two CLs?

maybe the finals were lucky enough, how about the quarter and semi finals they were very unlucky in? Porto springs to mind when they went on to win it. A certain amount of luck is involvd for any team to win it, Utd got beat by Barcelona in the final two years ago but then again Barcelona should not have even been there (semi final against Chelsea). You say Fergie has 2 in 24 years, for the first 5 years British teams were not even allowed in Europe. His first year with Utd in europe he won the cup winners cup. Your list of clubs european titles is irrelevant, i was talking about titles won since ferguson has had Utd in Europes top competition. Ie Madrid 3, Barcelona 3, Utd 2

**Jayo Cluxton** Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:12 pm

Barca were muck for a lot of SAFs tenure - Madrid have also had poor periods - as have the Italian sides. Yet they have more CLs than MUFC.

**Grenvile** Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:39 pm

Patrique you are judging United's keeping Ferguson by City and Chelsea standards. United had slightly more integrity than that. United were the best resourced club in the world thanks to success on the pitch achieved by Fergie. There was no sugar Daddy that they had to please, none of the "only the biggest cup" matters that you profess to hate.
Since when does the actions of Abramovic and Sheik become the standard by which United should be judged at? Fergie had done the treble with United before either of them knew whether the ball was pumped or stuffed.

Lads give credit where it is due because to run down Fergie's record stinks of jealousy. Fellas are frothing at the mouth here trying to get out the explanations about how bad he is, oh he's ONLY won 3 European Cups which he apparently lucked his way through and no team has ever had luck before, the Premier League is simple to win, in fact teams trip over themselves not to suffer the embarrassment of winning it, Fergie cries into his pillow every night not having Tevez warming the United bench any more, every team in Europe was crap when United did win it. Am I missing anything else here?
Fergie must resemble a Scottish Forrest Gump having managed for 30 odd years and found himself with 44 trophies through sheer luck. Being as greedy as he is (as yet unexplained JC) you'd think he'd just do the Euromillions and leave.

**Jayo Cluxton** Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:44 pm

Jaysus JS I am on record as saying I can't stand the man - a bully of the highest order. But I'll be fooked if I am going to spend the rest of my life countering arguments about him. Glad you are only an armchair fan and not a real one.

Back to the sugar daddy argument yawn ....

**Grenvile** Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:18 pm

Well if you do want to counter argue I'd hope you can come up with something better than writing "Yawn" Jayo.. Usually a sign of someone badly rattled.. Wink

I'm glad your not an ABU Jayo and willing to recognise United's achievements.. Razz

Anyways enough of that! So Fergie has came out and said Rooney wants to leave, he found out as early as August 14th. So if Rooney goes in Jan who would purchase? City and Chelsea and perhaps Real I'd imagine. Can't see Barca going for him they have enough options up front and are struggling with finance as it is. He may want to head abroad though to get away from the English media.

United will struggle up front without Rooney and the fans will not be happy. Something Fergie won't be able to explain away unless Berbatov starts banging them in or Hernandez matures very quickly. So then we will truly find out if United are as broke as people believe they are or will Fergie spend some of the Rooney transfer money or the 160 odd million they claim to have in the bank on a new striker.

Guest Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:10 pm

**OMAR** Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:33 pm

Jonsmith wrote:Well if you do want to counter argue I'd hope you can come up with something better than writing "Yawn" Jayo.. Usually a sign of someone badly rattled.. I'm glad your not an ABU Jayo and willing to recognise United's achievements..

Anyways enough of that! So Fergie has came out and said Rooney wants to leave, he found out as early as August 14th. So if Rooney goes in Jan who would purchase? City and Chelsea and perhaps Real I'd imagine. Can't see Barca going for him they have enough options up front and are struggling with finance as it is. He may want to head abroad though to get away from the English media.

United will struggle up front without Rooney and the fans will not be happy. Something Fergie won't be able to explain away unless Berbatov starts banging them in or Hernandez matures very quickly. So then we will truly find out if United are as broke as people believe they are or will Fergie spend some of the Rooney transfer money or the 160 odd million they claim to have in the bank on a new striker.

Maybe he will decide that Michael Owen might get younger

**patrique** Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:03 pm

samin10 wrote:
patrique wrote:
samin10 wrote:just had a look there, only Barcelona and Real Madrid have won more champions league. both on 3. Utd are on 2 along with AC Milan. Clearly not an easy competition to win now matter how big the club

real Madrid have won 9. Liverpool 5, Milan have 7.

Underachievers like the famous Barcelona now have 3, but they and the Inters and Reals and Liverpools were also winning the UEFA cup when it closely resembled todays CL as the 2nd, 3rd and 4th placed teams were all in it.

.And United were the best resourced and richest club in the world and Fergie got TWO fortuitous wins in 24 years

Do you think Mancini will still be managing Man City in 2033 if the sheik is still pouring in money and they have won two CLs?

maybe the finals were lucky enough, how about the quarter and semi finals they were very unlucky in? Porto springs to mind when they went on to win it. A certain amount of luck is involvd for any team to win it, Utd got beat by Barcelona in the final two years ago but then again Barcelona should not have even been there (semi final against Chelsea). You say Fergie has 2 in 24 years, for the first 5 years British teams were not even allowed in Europe. His first year with Utd in europe he won the cup winners cup. Your list of clubs european titles is irrelevant, i was talking about titles won since ferguson has had Utd in Europes top competition. Ie Madrid 3, Barcelona 3, Utd 2

Sorry Samin. Real won 3 in 5 years with TWO managers.

So you are obviously better changing manager every few years to be more successful.

As for Porto being lucky to beat United.....Porto!!!!!!!!!!United were wondering if they would beat their record 10-0 victory against Anderlecht.

Guest Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:14 pm

patrique wrote:
samin10 wrote:
patrique wrote:
samin10 wrote:just had a look there, only Barcelona and Real Madrid have won more champions league. both on 3. Utd are on 2 along with AC Milan. Clearly not an easy competition to win now matter how big the club

real Madrid have won 9. Liverpool 5, Milan have 7.

Underachievers like the famous Barcelona now have 3, but they and the Inters and Reals and Liverpools were also winning the UEFA cup when it closely resembled todays CL as the 2nd, 3rd and 4th placed teams were all in it.

.And United were the best resourced and richest club in the world and Fergie got TWO fortuitous wins in 24 years

Do you think Mancini will still be managing Man City in 2033 if the sheik is still pouring in money and they have won two CLs?

maybe the finals were lucky enough, how about the quarter and semi finals they were very unlucky in? Porto springs to mind when they went on to win it. A certain amount of luck is involvd for any team to win it, Utd got beat by Barcelona in the final two years ago but then again Barcelona should not have even been there (semi final against Chelsea). You say Fergie has 2 in 24 years, for the first 5 years British teams were not even allowed in Europe. His first year with Utd in europe he won the cup winners cup. Your list of clubs european titles is irrelevant, i was talking about titles won since ferguson has had Utd in Europes top competition. Ie Madrid 3, Barcelona 3, Utd 2

Sorry Samin. Real won 3 in 5 years with TWO managers.

So you are obviously better changing manager every few years to be more successful.

As for Porto being lucky to beat United.....Porto!!!!!!!!!!United were wondering if they would beat their record 10-0 victory against Anderlecht.

Or you could say Utd won 1 in 1 year which would be an even better success rate, you are clearly missing the point that the clubs should be examimed over the period of AF tenure as manager of UTD. But if you want to talk about resources surely as you know so much about Madrid in that period of the 3 in 5 years then you would know they were by far the biggest spenders at the time. Zidane (world record fee), Figo (world record fee), Ronaldo (not sure about world record but certainly was not cheap).

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