Down v Monaghan

To be honest there was a feeling in the crowd that Monaghan could simply not maintain the level of performance for the full game. When Laverty got the peno, leaving us 6 down going into the 2nd half with the breeze, I was expecting Down to storm out of the blocks.

Monaghan flattered to deceive in the first half and were subsequently destroyed. They were poor in the 2nd half but I do not accept that it was as simple as that...even after losing their commanding lead, they were handed a goal by some poor refereeing yet still Down overcame that.

Had it been Tyrone who had made the comeback on Sunday against Monaghan, we would all be talking about the gulf in class and how it was painfully clear in the 2nd half. We would say that Tyrone's tactical savvy and experience saw them crush the Monaghan spirit. As spirited as Monaghan were in the 1st half, Down showed they had greater hunger and utterly outclassed them in the 2nd; tactically and athletically.

BA, without taking away from a brave and spirited fightback, you could also argue that Down scraped home against a poor side.

Monaghan have won only 4/18 games under McEneaney, and have developed a losing habit. Despite this, they dominated Down in the 1st half (at least as convincingly as Down dominated them after half time), and during the 1st 35 minutes Down were made look shockingly bad.

I know you'll see the positives, and there are some (the spirit and grit was very impressive, as were a few individual performances), but Down need to ask serious questions of themselves as to why they were so completely dominated for half the match by a weak side.

I strongly agree, if Down fall behind better sides like that, they will not get a sniff of a comeback. However, I would like to think, given the relatively solid performances this year, that the first half performance against Monaghan will be addressed and not repeated again. I also do not think that Down will have to suffer a worse refereeing display for some time.

It is difficult to explain the Down display in the first half. Monaghan were giving a very Cork-like performance in the first half and Down resembled rabbits caught in the headlights. Unlike Cork though, Monaghan lacked the ability to sustain this level of intensity. In a game of this nature, it is difficult to gauge to what extent the result was down to the losing team simply imploding, or to the winning team upping their game.

Something James McCartan will seriously have to look at it is his recurrent nepotism and Burren favouritism. These issues have been a blight in what has otherwise been a job well done by McCartan. Dan McCartan is a decent corner back who can perform well on the day but simply does not show the consistency to justify his selection over other players who aren't miles better but have much more pace (i.e Kevin Duffin). James must also accept that Eoin McCartan, as blessed with talent as he was at a young age, has never overcame his injury problems to develop into the player he should have been. Down football must come before the McCartan legacy.

The Down half-backs have been very good but must remember they are defenders first and foremost. While I love to see half-backs attacking, McKernan & Co flood forward when there are already 6 very capable forwards, which often leads to over-elaborate fist passing and a lack of direction in attack. They are then also susceptible to being caught out of position, putting a lot pf pressure on the full backs.

The first half against Monaghan was as worrying as the second half was uplifting. But like I said, had we beaten Monaghan easily we would have learned very little. The manner in which Down won will give them a huge boost going into a final...but there is also a lesson learned, and Down must remember it. It's a good way to go into a final in my opinion!

bluearmy1 wrote:
Something James McCartan will seriously have to look at it is his recurrent nepotism and Burren favouritism. These issues have been a blight in what has otherwise been a job well done by McCartan. Dan McCartan is a decent corner back who can perform well on the day but simply does not show the consistency to justify his selection over other players who aren't miles better but have much more pace (i.e Kevin Duffin). James must also accept that Eoin McCartan, as blessed with talent as he was at a young age, has never overcame his injury problems to develop into the player he should have been. Down football must come before the McCartan legacy.

The Down half-backs have been very good but must remember they are defenders first and foremost. While I love to see half-backs attacking, McKernan & Co flood forward when there are already 6 very capable forwards, which often leads to over-elaborate fist passing and a lack of direction in attack. They are then also susceptible to being caught out of position, putting a lot pf pressure on the full backs.

I thought that O'Hagan played quite well, and McArdle had an excellent 2nd half. Brannigan was a loss in the defence also.

Of the others, McKernan is more interested in running up the field than he is in defending, although perhaps Sunday will have been a wake-up call for him, as he was awful. Dan McCartan was taken off, but he wasn't as bad as Conor Garvey, who was beaten all ends up by Conor McManus. How Garvey lasted the game I have no idea, as he should have been taken off, long before he should have been sent off.

With Liam Doyle and Brannigan to come back in, Down have options in the half-backs, but they still have serious problems in the full back line.

The big worry for me if I was a Down supporter would be that McCartan was unable to change things in the first half whilst the action was going on. Granted whatever was said or done at halftime (by whoever) worked but the fact that he seemed unable to stem the tide in 'real time' maybe sets him apart from great managers.

Or maybe I'm just being too harsh on him. But the fact he watched his men kick big high balls into a small forward unit was baffling. It was a good comeback but I think it doesn't disguise the fact that this was 2 average teams.

I suppose the other point is McEneaney done nothing to stem the tide in the second half either, obvious limitations here too. He would come across as a man who is holding those guys back more than anything, but he's not alone in that department.

Bocerty, I think you're being incredibly harsh.

No one is saying he's a 'great' manager, he's been there a couple of years and has made massive progress. Down were no-hopers when McCartan took over, and despite the constant determined assertions on this forum that they are an average team, they will have now appeared in an Ulster final, an All-Ireland final, a Division One semi-final, and comfortably secured Division One status under his tenure. This is remarkable.

In fact, Down's inability to beat Cork is just about the only thing that has stopped them from being considered among the best teams in the country. It was Cork who beat them in 2010, and 2011, and ended their chances of a Division One final this year. I remember not so long ago Cork themselves had their own bogeymen in the form of Kerry. Down have proven themselves capable of beating all the top teams in the country, with the very notable exception of the Rebels. Down have beaten Kerry, Dublin, Donegal, Mayo, Kildare in all in the past 2 years in league/Championship. While I'm not saying that makes us world beaters, it certainly doesn't suggest that Down are as 'average' as is often said on this forum.

Down were so awful in the first half against Monaghan that the Lord himself would have found it hard to turn the tide. It is true to say though that whenever McCartan got a houl of them at half time there was a massive improvement in all departments. His substitutions were excellent and timed to perfection. Give McCartan a break man, he has done a fantastic job with Down.

BA two questions from your previous post.

You say they are not an average side, how many Down men would walk on to any other county team in the country, not too many in my opinion. Cork beat them in 2010 and annihilated them last year so you can draw a number of conclusions from that.

As for his substitutions, he took off his own brother when the bother was further out the field and there was a few other guys who 'deserved' to be sitting on the line more than him. He was in panic mode at that stage and knew he had to be seen to be doing something to look like he was trying to change things.

Granted the subs he made in the second half paid off, but on another day he might not be so lucky.

BA my friend - you are still dining out on catching Kerry on the hop 2 years ago. Please do not stoop to mentioning beating teams in the League. The weather isn't even good then.

Also BA - most Ulster posters here would accept that standards have dropped in the province since Tyrone won a third Sam in 2008. Down have not even been to a provincial final since 2003 and not won one since 1994. If you think Cork are the only team standing between Down and greatness my friend you are hugely deluded. If I think (and I do) that Cork are the main team standing between the Dubs and greatness then that's a good bit nearer the mark.

I am not interested in what Down players would get on to other county sides. As far as I'm concerned a 'top' team like Donegal hardly possesses footballers at all. I wouldn't say Conor Laverty would get a sniff in some of the best teams in the country, yet he is a terrific little footballer.

I am merely 'dining out' on the fact that while you all constantly say how poor they are, their results just haven't been proportionate to those of a poor team. As soon as Marty Clarke left, the general consensus was that Down would die away again. So far, it hasn't exactly panned out like that.

Do I think Down are far off the likes of Dublin, Kildare, Tyrone, Donegal? Not at all. Down are extremely inconsistent though....but yet even with inconsistency, they have done very well for themselves. Down have some very exploitable weaknesses. As do all the aforementioned teams.

Boc, I'm sorry but I just don't accept your point about the Monaghan game. Down were hopeless in the first half and to be honest I don't see how a personnel change could have changed things. At half time a strategy was clearly thought up, and executed to perfection on the pitch. I do not think you would have held the same opinion about Mickey Harte in 2003 when a young Down team were all over Tyrone. Monaghan played their hearts out in the first half, and Down completely buried them in the second.

It seems that I cannot defend Down without being accused of exaggerating their ability. I am not saying anything outlandish here. I am merely telling you all that while you insist on claiming that Down are a poor side, their progress over the past 2 years, and their results so far this year, have not been indicative of a poor side. I said last year that Down struggled perhaps with the tag of All-Ireland finalists, were not used to being a 'scalp', and it had a bad effect on them. All I'm saying is...let's see if I was right on that one.

I think standards have dropped in Kerry and Tyrone since 2008! I don't think Ulster in general has got much worse to be honest. Down have got better since 2008, as have Donegal, Armagh got worse but have improved. Tyrone, while nowhere near their 2008 pomp, haven't really died the death they were expected to.

Down will appear in the 2012 Ulster final, so that statistic can now be updated.

I never said anything about greatness. I only pointed out, quite rightly, that it has been Cork who have ended our seasons for the past 2 years. There is no huge shame in that and it certainly doesn't make Down a poor team.

I agree with you re Donegal but that's about it BA. But fair play to you for wearing the red and black tinted specs .... we all do that. Down are a bit like Meath to me over the last number of years.

bluearmy1 wrote:I think standards have dropped in Kerry and Tyrone since 2008! I don't think Ulster in general has got much worse to be honest. Down have got better since 2008, as have Donegal, Armagh got worse but have improved. Tyrone, while nowhere near their 2008 pomp, haven't really died the death they were expected to.

Down will appear in the 2012 Ulster final, so that statistic can now be updated.

I never said anything about greatness. I only pointed out, quite rightly, that it has been Cork who have ended our seasons for the past 2 years. There is no huge shame in that and it certainly doesn't make Down a poor team.

That doesnt make down a poor team but not scoring from play until 44 minutes against a poor monaghan team may well create an argument for them to be called a poor team.

Yes of course NSG. That is the poorest I've seen Down play for a long time (not helped by the ref I must say). But again, considering the fact they played so poorly...yet still managed to ultimately make up a 9 point deficit, and then a 4 point deficit...well I just don't know what that says. I wouldn't say it makes us contenders for Sam, but it certainly doesn't suggest we are as poor as is asserted on this forum.

It's not about wearing red and black specs. An AIF, comfortable consolidation of Division One status two years running, and now a provincial final....it just doesn't sound like the standings of a poor team.

Down are not world-beaters. But for the past 2 years pretty much everyone in this forum has consistently said they are poor. Despite this, their results would appear to place them, accurately or otherwise, among the best teams in the country. This is not bias....it is a simple fact.

Fair enough BA ..... up Down. Meath comparison stands.