Best Ever Irish Sportsman ...

Thomas Clarke wrote:

JimWexford wrote:
no wonder we win nothing on the international stage cause they live up to the stereotype of been pissed the whole time.

Well, Best must have been sober for long enough to win European Footballer of the Year, on the international stage.

Jim, you mightn't like the man, and that is fair enough, but his brilliance and achievements in a short space of time were exceptional.

Didn't know him to not like him I can only go on what I have read about him.
As I pointed out before I never saw him play.
But Best had team-mates that helped him win all his awards he didn't do it himself.

But you still haven't answered the other part of my question or rather can you define in your own words a great sportsperson/man
Please remember the use of the word Great in this context.

JimWexford wrote:Didn't know him to not like him I can only go on what I have read about him.
As I pointed out before I never saw him play.
But Best had team-mates that helped him win all his awards he didn't do it himself.

But you still haven't answered the other part of my question or rather can you define in your own words a great sportsperson/man
Please remember the use of the word Great in this context.

In sporting terms, great takes many things into account, but not what what he did in his private life. As a sportsman, George Best was great.

Is Tiger Woods not a great sportsman?
Or Jim Thorpe?
Or Carlos Monzon or Jake LaMotta?
Or Garrincha or Maradona?
Or Shane Warne or Ian Botham?
Or countless others who were 'flawed' men?

Best played his sport fairly and brilliantly. He wasn't a cheat or a dirty player. What he did in his private life has nothing to do with his brilliance as a sportsman.

Best wouldn't lace Cryuff's boots, washed up and finished at 27....A waste of a good liver

The Puke wrote:Best wouldn't lace Cryuff's boots, washed up and finished at 27....A waste of a good liver

Well, if Cruyff was Irish, then Best would probably have to settle for 2nd place in this poll.

Thomas Clarke wrote:

The Puke wrote:Best wouldn't lace Cryuff's boots, washed up and finished at 27....A waste of a good liver

Well, if Cruyff was Irish, then Best would probably have to settle for 2nd place in this poll.

Best was a good player but not one of the greats of all time, overrated because he was Irish and he certainly had the talent but the fact remains he was pissing his life away when he should have been at the peak of his powers and not a journeyman....Just because he was a tortured soul it doesn't make him one of the greats, he is around the same level as the likes of Kevin Keegan, Michael Owen, Gary Linekar and Alan Shearer....A good player but nowhere close to the likes of Zidane, Maradonna, Cryuff, Neeskens, Platini's, Beckenbauer's of this world....

Vastly overrated by the Irish and Man United fans, nothing new here i suppose

The Puke wrote:

Thomas Clarke wrote:

The Puke wrote:Best wouldn't lace Cryuff's boots, washed up and finished at 27....A waste of a good liver

Well, if Cruyff was Irish, then Best would probably have to settle for 2nd place in this poll.

Best was a good player but not one of the greats of all time, overrated because he was Irish and he certainly had the talent but the fact remains he was pissing his life away when he should have been at the peak of his powers and not a journeyman....Just because he was a tortured soul it doesn't make him one of the greats, he is around the same level as the likes of Kevin Keegan, Michael Owen, Gary Linekar and Alan Shearer....A good player but nowhere close to the likes of Zidane, Maradonna, Cryuff, Neeskens, Platini's, Beckenbauer's of this world....

Vastly overrated by the Irish and Man United fans, nothing new here i suppose

overrated by pele as well who said he was the greatest he had seen.

samin10 wrote:

The Puke wrote:

Thomas Clarke wrote:

The Puke wrote:Best wouldn't lace Cryuff's boots, washed up and finished at 27....A waste of a good liver

Well, if Cruyff was Irish, then Best would probably have to settle for 2nd place in this poll.

Best was a good player but not one of the greats of all time, overrated because he was Irish and he certainly had the talent but the fact remains he was pissing his life away when he should have been at the peak of his powers and not a journeyman....Just because he was a tortured soul it doesn't make him one of the greats, he is around the same level as the likes of Kevin Keegan, Michael Owen, Gary Linekar and Alan Shearer....A good player but nowhere close to the likes of Zidane, Maradonna, Cryuff, Neeskens, Platini's, Beckenbauer's of this world....

Vastly overrated by the Irish and Man United fans, nothing new here i suppose

overrated by pele as well who said he was the greatest he had seen.

He also hawks erectile disfunction pills all over the world, I'd take whatever Pele says with a pinch of salt....

This is the same Pele who was pontificating about current players being driven by money and have no loyalty to their clubs....i suppose he f-ucked off to play in the states on a voluntary basis...

Puke agree with you.
TC sorry a sportsperson private life does come into it.
The reason why he is being paid those vast sums by the fans of that sport.
You gave a list of people who have fallen from grace and in that list the ones I know of such as Woods has certainly fallen from grace in the eyes of been called the greatest any more. Regards Beefy and Warne I know fcuk all about cricket but again is that not a small sport only played by a few counties so in your previous argument [players who play that don't count due to the small playing pool)
Everyone has there own ideology of what the greatest sportsperson is/was.
Maybe draw up a list of conditions that can be applied and maybe (just maybe) we can agree on someone.
Regarding Best also think he blown out of all proportion because he came from the 6 counties as well.

He also hawks erectile disfunction pills all over the world, I'd take whatever Pele says with a pinch of salt....

This is the same Pele who was pontificating about current players being driven by money and have no loyalty to their clubs....i suppose he f-ucked off to play in the states on a voluntary basis....
The Puke

First point.He was outstanding in his prime.
Second point. Pele stayed with Santos during his whole international career and did not go to Cosmos until he was 33 or 34.

The Puke wrote:

samin10 wrote:

The Puke wrote:

Thomas Clarke wrote:

The Puke wrote:Best wouldn't lace Cryuff's boots, washed up and finished at 27....A waste of a good liver

Well, if Cruyff was Irish, then Best would probably have to settle for 2nd place in this poll.

Best was a good player but not one of the greats of all time, overrated because he was Irish and he certainly had the talent but the fact remains he was pissing his life away when he should have been at the peak of his powers and not a journeyman....Just because he was a tortured soul it doesn't make him one of the greats, he is around the same level as the likes of Kevin Keegan, Michael Owen, Gary Linekar and Alan Shearer....A good player but nowhere close to the likes of Zidane, Maradonna, Cryuff, Neeskens, Platini's, Beckenbauer's of this world....

Vastly overrated by the Irish and Man United fans, nothing new here i suppose

overrated by pele as well who said he was the greatest he had seen.

He also hawks erectile disfunction pills all over the world, I'd take whatever Pele says with a pinch of salt....

This is the same Pele who was pontificating about current players being driven by money and have no loyalty to their clubs....i suppose he f-ucked off to play in the states on a voluntary basis...

He played for Santos for his whole career, he only played for New York for 2 years after coming out of retirement. He played for Santos for the best part of 20 years

And what were his motives for going to the US??????

JimWexford wrote:Puke agree with you.
TC sorry a sportsperson private life does come into it.
The reason why he is being paid those vast sums by the fans of that sport.
You gave a list of people who have fallen from grace and in that list the ones I know of such as Woods has certainly fallen from grace in the eyes of been called the greatest any more. Regards Beefy and Warne I know fcuk all about cricket but again is that not a small sport only played by a few counties so in your previous argument [players who play that don't count due to the small playing pool)
Everyone has there own ideology of what the greatest sportsperson is/was.
Maybe draw up a list of conditions that can be applied and maybe (just maybe) we can agree on someone.
Regarding Best also think he blown out of all proportion because he came from the 6 counties as well.

Jim, you are all over the place. I mentioned Warne & Botham because I was making the point that a person's private life does not impact their right to be called great in a sporting context. Of course they were greats, as is O'Driscoll.

Also, are you seriously saying that Tiger Woods is no longer considered a great golfer or a great sportsman because of the scandals?

JimWexford wrote: Regarding Best also think he blown out of all proportion because he came from the 6 counties as well.

And what is that supposed to mean? Many people all over the world rate George Best as being among the greatest footballers ever because he came from Belfast???

We were talking about best ever,
I was making the point that their private life or rather off field activities do come into play when labelling these so called greats.
An example Scholes (or however you spell it) you never hear about him off the field but on the field I don't know where he is among the best but he always seems to get mentioned and also because he is a role model.
Best, Maradonna, Higgins, Woods and more while they have/had talent in there particular fields are more known as drunks , junkies and sex addicts not really inspiring role models for youngsters to aspire to.
sorry that is part of the make up of a great sports person/star that they above and beyond reproach whilst been excellent in their chosen field, someone who is a role model for kids to inspire the to follow the dream.
Certainly not someone who pissed it all away, he may of been good and people of a certain generation think the world of him but there are a lot more who just saw him as a drunk, and you could throw Higgins in that bracket as well.
all I remember of Best was he looking for and getting a liver transplant and drinking the new liver away.

So Jim, lets say for example we have two midfielders, Mick and Tom, the two best in Ireland. Tom is a great midfielder, but off the field is an alcoholic sex addict drunk driver. Mick is also a great midfielder, model professional off the pitch gives his wages to charities and runs a foster home.
By your logic even if Tom plays against Mick, scores ten points and catches every ball ahead of him, Mick is still the greatest Midfielder?

I suppose when we are discussing the greatest we cannot dismiss our own sports. If we base it on international standards it should be on a worldwide sport, ie Soccer,Athletics,boxing etc. Our local sportsmen have to be considered so I would divide it between them and international sports (world wide).

Sorry Jim, I just don't see how it should affect their status or achievements as sportsmen.

But if you only remember the bad in those guys, that is your prerogative. It is worth rememberring, though, that there are none of us without flaws.

I asked the question to define what people mean by greatest.
Also said in my opinion yes the off field activities come into it because that will/can influence youngsters coming up.
Easy to "make up" an example like you just did JS I haven't gone down the mythical lets make up a scenario story I was dealing with what has gone on.
But is your example about GAA, that has been ruled out due to the small playing pool and its not international/global etc or maybe because its not professional don't know.
Is your example based on one game, sure even the greatest have an off day, and I don't think the alcoholic would last over the long run which to become great you would have to where as Mick possibly would.
Each to there own, if you want to hold up a pissed up drunkard as your favourite by all means that's your choice but it would be a poor reflection on the country, we had an incident with Biffo and that didn't do us any favours internally or on the international stage.

Thomas Clarke wrote:Sorry Jim, I just don't see how it should affect their status or achievements as sportsmen.

But if you only remember the bad in those guys, that is your prerogative. It is worth rememberring, though, that there are none of us without flaws.

on that I agree whole heartily.
but when you enter public life as these people do and are paid by the public then they should be beyond reproach.
The Aussies at least take it fairly serious and if AFL stars are found out in compromising positions etc thy are duly sacked.
and it is not remembering only the bad, that is all that was ever in the news about him.
I have no great gra for soccer that I will admit so all i really know about the game is what is reported and that is all I ever really heard about Best, drunk, bet the **** of of a few women, drunk, and ewrrr drunk.
In my lifetime that is all the man did, that is not looking for the bad that is what he was.
My Da on the other hand idolised him but what I mentioned about is all I ever saw or heard of him

JimWexford wrote:
I have no great gra for soccer that I will admit so all i really know about the game is what is reported and that is all I ever really heard about Best, drunk, bet the **** of of a few women, drunk, and ewrrr drunk.
In my lifetime that is all the man did, that is not looking for the bad that is what he was.
My Da on the other hand idolised him but what I mentioned about is all I ever saw or heard of him

And therein lies the truth. By your own admission you don't know anything about George Best the sportsman, just George Best the man. The demons of one should not detract from the brilliance of the other.

sorry was best irish? what was his famous quote? when asked what he would be doing if he wasnt playing football??? anyone know that?


in relation to this thread i suppose the word greatest is banded about alot but what is great? what does it take?

for me it is going beyond what you preseved talent should allow. its rising above ure best many times through-out ure life. its about being far more than the sum of ure parts. its about reaching ure potential and then breaking through that and reaching for more.

if you take that into accound im afraid poor best didnt come close, yes he was brillient but great? maybe he was the most talented football of his generation but did he reach the limits of his talents? did he realise his potential?

i said Roy Keane simply becouse he out-stripped his potenial it was unreal, his drive , ambition, heart, soul and sheer determination maked him out, his will to keep improving and to always strive for perfection made him great, very few irish sports people have ever really truelly realised there FULL potentioal,

yes many sports stars where far more Talented than keane but this is not a tread on the most talented irish person its the best.

Roy Keane was a plodder and a bully on the soccer field, similar enough Mark Van Bommel but again is held in far higher regard than he should be by United fans and some irish fans, yet you don't hear too many of them ever praise MVB...

Paul Green.

Great first touch, brilliant vision and a wonderful passer of the ball.

Thomas Clarke wrote:

JimWexford wrote:
I have no great gra for soccer that I will admit so all i really know about the game is what is reported and that is all I ever really heard about Best, drunk, bet the **** of of a few women, drunk, and ewrrr drunk.
In my lifetime that is all the man did, that is not looking for the bad that is what he was.
My Da on the other hand idolised him but what I mentioned about is all I ever saw or heard of him

And therein lies the truth. By your own admission you don't know anything about George Best the sportsman, just George Best the man. The demons of one should not detract from the brilliance of the other.

whats the difference again all this crap about idolising another drunk, sorry all i can see is what he was a drunk who only played a few years and was lucky it was in a team that was challenging for honours.
You may have a rose tinted view of him though united or northern ireland. sorry i have none.
He was what he was a drunk who by all accounts gave up when the going got tough, so is that part of the definition of greatness now.

You're a great man for the assumptions Jim. I don't support Man Utd, or Northern Ireland for that matter. I just rate George Best as a fabulous footballer. He was brave as a lion and had a great will to win, but sure it's easy for someone to put him down given his off-the-field failings.

Still haven't heard you explain your comment about him only being talked about because he was from the 6 counties.