Mystic Meg Football Final prediction ....

While I have not given Down enough credit this year I can now confirm to posters that I had a vision last night regarding the winners of this years football final. I saw glimpses of the winning team and can present two unassailable facts which may help GT punters to fill their boots and look after the Christmas spend!

I can tell ye - with absolute certainty that the winners of Sam this year will be a county with four letters in it ...... the second being 'O'. No thanks necessary.

Down who dont lose finals against a Cork team who do lose them.

Corcaigh V An Dún

you better be right this time JC

Should be a great clash. From the Down point of view..


-Down are nippier on the ball, they like to keep the ball moving constantly with short passes to cut through defences but with players like Coulter, Poland, Hughes on the ball and Brendan McKernan surging forward they can hit scores from distance if given the room. Cork will have to use their physical presence to stop them running, in particular Danny Hughes who can run end to end all day if not picked up.

-Clarke is great on the ball and the Down forwards always make good runs. Clarke is well used to physical opponents and seems to have no trouble getting passes away of that left boot even when under pressure. Cork will need to decide whether to focus on stopping Clarke or stopping the runners and I'm not sure they can do both. Clarke is always handy for a few scores though and is the hub of this Down teams movement.

-Down's midfield face a huge test. King can compete with anyone in the physical stakes but his pace isn't great. However, many thought he would struggle without Ambrose by his side against Kildare but he took some great catches and really made life awkward for Kildare's midfield. Cork will be a different story though if their first choice midfield remains available. King and his midfield companion will have to be on top of their game as midfield will make or break one of these teams. Fitzpatrick was immense in midfield last Sunday and I can see him starting for the final but hopefully Down can call on big Ambrose to come in. At his best Rodgers is one of the finest midfielders in Ireland. His ability to catch and then surge forward with the ball is inspirational to all around him and he is a true leader....if brought in he may provide the lift that Down need to go all the way.

-The Down defence has finally got a bit of steel to it. Garvey, McCartan and Rafferty are leeches and great tacklers. Rafferty loves to surge forward and so does McKernan. However, if not allowed to flow they sometimes panic and start passing around their own full/half back lines and if Cork show tenacity they might get a few turnovers in here. Cork forwards must be prepared to tackle as we have seen Down forwards do. If the Down defence stays disciplined they are well able to overcome the strength of the Cork forwards by simply getting the hand and pressuring the ball. McCartan is particularly good at this, excels in the basics of defence : no frills, forget the forward, pressure the ball. He kept Kavanagh to a single score against Kildare which is no handy feat. The backs will struggle to impose themselves physically but are good tacklers and hasslers. Problems may arise if Cork run straight at the Down defence and Down.


As for hunger and mentality neither side will be lacking. Down will now consider themselves able to beat anyone if they play their best for the full 70. Yes, they will be delighted to be in a final far earlier than anyone expected but now a famous record is on the line. The history will be well overplayed by the media but it is definitely a factor. A famous victory is so close and Cork are vulnerable.....and Down will sense the chance for an ambush.

Cork have not played well this year in comparison to their capabilities but are still in the All-Ireland final. They know they have not peaked and are desperate to prove themselves. They will not underestimate a Down team that has totally transformed over the summer (and beaten Kerry) but will use their experience of previous disappointment to motivate themselves. This is their chance to be Champions and they simply cannot afford to lose another All-Ireland final.

Regardless of who wins the final, I think its safe to say that Down will slip quietly back to being nobodys again next year.

Gaelic Football is a peculiar science, if a science at all and one of the great unanswered questions for the rest of eternity will be how this Down team managed to him and haw their way past the lesser lights of Donegal, Longford and Offaly before managing to take an ageing Kerry team apart?

Then, to get Kildare at their worst since Louth was an act of great kindness by Lady Luck all the way up there in the sky.

I suspect they will be back alongside the Cavans and Fermanaghs of Ulster in a year's time.

Could be worse we could be down with Meath and Derry.

And by the way if yas ever manage to produce another 'Unbeatable' Meath team send them over to Croker to take their beating from Down and be off home.

A very good analysis Bluearmy, even if it is more than a little bit red&black tinted.

Loyal, while you've been a bit disingenuous, there is a bit of truth in what you say, in that I don't actually think that Down are one of the top 2 teams in Ireland.

But, in many ways, they look more like champions-in-waiting than Cork do.

Well I did say 'from a Down point of view' at the start.

You can only beat what's put in front of you. TC, as a Tyrone man, you should know better than most that Ulster teams have always had to do that little bit extra before anyone will ever give them credit. Down are the most improved team of this year's Championship and are a totally different team than they were 2 months ago.

I have to admit it would feel wrong saying Down are in the top 2 teams in the country because they have just come out of nowhere but they have improved immeasurably. Would we not say that players like Benny Coulter, Martin Clarke and Danny Hughes are among the best in Ireland in their positions? Down learned a lesson against Tyrone and I would be interested to see them play again. They are showing great leadership...each player ready to take responsibilty unlike against Tyrone when they panicked..sat back...and just let Tyrone command the game.

It's a bit silly talking about the Donegal game...first round Ulster games are always cagey. Tyrone had enough difficulty dealing with Antrim but of course got the job done. Fact is...Down have got a lot better since then....if they were to play Donegal, Offally, or Longford on the 19th it would be a demolition.

If Down look like champions....then they are certainly among the top teams in the country. And if Down beat Cork, let it be remembered how many saw Cork as certs for the title if Kerry or Tyrone didn't stop them. And let it be remembered that Down won their title playing pure positive football....and no one can argue with that.

Having read Bluearmy's analysis I have backed Down to win the World Cross Country championship, beating Ethiopia and Kenya into the minor places.

Hughes to pip Bekele for individual honours.

Now to the all Ireland. bar Benny have they any "great" players?

Clarke might be in a few years but..............

Bluearmy and the rest of ye Down lads ... I am gonna back Down to win for the first time this year - in the bookies and tipster. For a large bribe I will back Cork instead. You have been warned!

That Down team is full of potential 'great players'. This is a team full of underage All-Ireland winners (not to mention that u21 team that lost to Cork in the last kick of the All-Ireland final a few years ago) They're very young yet. Coulter has already showed his top class quality and so has Danny Hughes and it says a lot about your knowledge of this Down team that you have not rated Hughes alongside Coulter. Rafferty is finally getting the chance to show everyone why he has been a constant in Down's defence for the past number of years with his excellent man marking abilities. McKernan is showing great potential and is still very young. Same for Fitzpatrick. I believe Rodgers is one of the finest midfielders in the country and I hope he can prove me right on All-Ireland final day.

As for Clarke, he is giving an exhibition in playmaking and is quite simply one of the most composed players on the ball I have ever seen. Rarely makes an error.

How do you rate great players? To me, Down are playing wonderful football at the moment. Is anyone going to disagree with me when I say they are playing pure football? ...Have they used blanket defences? Have they playacted and dived? Have they been dirty?

The way some people are talking here they expect that only teams like Kerry and Tyrone can win credible All-irelands because of their great players. The fact is, Down are still a young team and have managed to reach an All-Ireland final.

Give them a chance! If they are a great team they will show it! You can all bow down to Tyrone and Kerry if you want but the Mournemen will get on with their business and God knows hopefully give us another era of Down success to celebrate for years to come.

BlueArmy, you are getting a bit ahead of yourself.

Patrique is right in his assessment of this Down side's great players. Benny has been a wonderful player for the last decade and, even though he isn't the player he was 5-6 years ago, he is still a fabulous footballer when in the mood.

Clarke, I've rated since I saw him as a 16 year old, and his rise to one of the best players in Ireland is no surprise to me. Having said that, I wouldn't crown him as a 'great' just yet, but he certainly has the tools to become one.

Danny Hughes has had 2 very good games (Kerry and Kildare), but he has a long, long, long way to go before he could be considered great. And I disagree that he is at Benny's level, even now, when Benny has been somewhat depleted by injuries over the years.

As for the others, some promising players, yes, but to call them 'great' is ridiculous.

Hmm again I get the feeling that my comments are just skimmed over. I very clearly used the word potential in my last post. Hughes has had more than 2 good games in the Down jersey over the years but quite simply no-one else around him had the drive to allow him to showcase his skills to a national audience.

TC..again there seems to be a lack of knowledge about this Down team on the part of many posters. I have been watching Benny play since he first really burst onto the scene in 2003 and have played against him at club level. Never before has Benny been playing anything close to the level he is now. A lot of that has to do with the fact he was Down's only real quality player back then except for Liam Doyle and Mickey McVeigh but in the past he tended to drop the head, get frustrated and simply give up. This year he has been the perfect example of determination. He's playing the best football I've ever seen him play and this is coming from someone who has followed that team through the dark days of defeats to Wicklow, Sligo, Longford ...and Antrim (when they were God awful).

I am by no means getting ahead of myself. I stand by what I said, Benny is a great player, as is Hughes. Do I believe this Down team is great? Not at all. They've won nothing. But until 2003 players like Brian McGuigan, Conor Gormley etc. were nobodys. They had to prove themselves and it took time. This Down team has potential...real potential. If they're beat on the 19th and fade away to obscurity I will hold my hands up and say they simply didn't have what it took. But they're showing signs that they do have what it takes. Small signs, but still signs.

Bluearmy, I fear you are showing your age, or lack of it, as I've been watching Benny Coulter since he actually did burst onto the scene in 1999, not 2003.

Benny was faster 6-7 years ago than he is now, and was much more dangerous 1-on-1 and getting in for goals. His attitude has been poor at times in the past (as implied when I said 'fabulous player when in the mood'), but he was a better athlete then than he is now. He is still brilliant, but his form this year has been helped by having support, at last.

And I still can't believe that on one hand you are claiming Danny Hughes as a 'great player', yet on the other say that you aren't getting ahead of yourself. Some of those Tyrone players were not great players in 2003. But they are now. Argue the case for Danny Hughes in 5-6 years time.

2003 was the first year he was able to show off his abilities at senior level to a wider audience in Down's run to the Ulster final. It was the year he went from future star to star.

Benny is without a doubt playing his best football for Down at the minute. Whether or not he was a better player a few years ago is dubious enough because he has been quite consistent over the years. He got a good run this year surrounded by a team who finally compliment his ability.

Obviously Hughes is a matter of opinion. He lived in Coulter's shadow for years but certainly was just as influential. He's a class act. I don't know how to define greatness in a player (does anyone?) but if I'm allowed a bit of bias I would tell you that any true Down supporter who sat through the barren years would put Hughes right up there with Coulter. He doesn't have the same aura as Coulter but certainly in terms of work rate he has actually outdone Coulter over the years.

Don't want to get too sucked into this debate TC. Really don't want people to think I'm building this Down team up to be something they're not. They have potential but it might never even come close to beinf fulfilled. Victory on the 19th would really help their case though.

Maurice Fitzgerald, Trevor Giles, Ciaran McDonald, were greats.

Graham Geraghty, Dara O'Se, Paddy Christie, were very good but possibly fell short of greatness.

Paddy Bradley, Ciaran Whelan, Ger Cavlan had their moments.

In summation, Marty Clarke, well he could become a great somewhere down the line. Very few players achieve greatness before the ages of 26, 27, 28, Colm Cooper a noticeable exception. Benny Coulter is somewhere between category two and category three and its unlikely that he will ever be considered a great. Danny Hughes is not defined on the above scale. But he probably ranks somewhere alongside Johnny O'Shaughnessy, Tommy Bloggs and Zhang Shi, in the "nobodys category". Do not recognise the name myself but I presume according to this thread he is a Down footballer?

Oh here comes the Meath man looking to stoke up a few fires. Sorry let's all back off here...don't want to mess with those Meath men...Leinster Champions and all that (sort of).

Aye he's a Down player so he is....playing in an All-Ireland final after beating Kildare.

Remember what Kildare did to Meath?

Yeah thadda boy you remember ;-)

I know that little about Down GAA affairs that I remember THE Danny Hughes, an all time great from Ballycran, who should have won a few all stars for his finesse, skill and stick work.

But he played for Down.

This Danny Hughes can RUN all day and all that, but is he a great athlete or footballer?

I REMEMBER WATCHING cLARKE AND A FEW OTHERS AT MINOR AND SCHOOLS LEVEL, mCCARTAN FOR YEARS AT qUEEN'S, AND pAUL mCcOMISKEY FOR HIS CLUB, so I know a bit about the pedigree of this side. (EXCUSE THE CAPITALS, ROTTEN CAPS LOCK AGAIN)

As for your comment about people raving about Tyrone and Kerry, you are obviously not familiar with my posts.

Not going to lie patrique...hurling in Down is more of an Antrim thing. Played in an Ulster Colleges semi-final in hurling myself but Christ we got hammered by Corpus Christi who were probably awful themselves.

Anyway, watch the Down Kildare game again and make your own conclusion about his athletic/footballing ability.

bluearmy1 wrote:Not going to lie patrique...hurling in Down is more of an Antrim thing. Played in an Ulster Colleges semi-final in hurling myself but Christ we got hammered by Corpus Christi who were probably awful themselves.

Anyway, watch the Down Kildare game again and make your own conclusion about his athletic/footballing ability.

I was talking tonight to 5 or 6 people (two from Down) and the gist was as follows.

Look at Antrim and Down on PAPER and well, perhaps you would pick more Antrim lads than Down if you were combining the teams. Both lost to Tyrone, Down narrowly beat Kildare, Antrim drew with them in Kildare and then lost the replay.

All agreed that the best display they have seen in thye championship by one player was Kevin McGourty in the first Kildare match.

So on PAPER not a lot to pick between antrim and Down, and I am not going to come on here saying Antrim are a special team.

Today with the bit between their teeth Down would likely beat antrim, but in May/June?

So all I am really saying is that my football "theory" espoused about 4 years ago holds up.

Get a dedicated panel with 2 scoring forwards, one of whom could be a free taker, and you will do ok.

If you also have a couple of very good players, like Benny, you could go places. The nature of the game nowadays rewards hard graft and teamwork, as distinct at times to individual genius.

But none of this detracts from Down, they are deservedly in the final, but I would find it difficult to say they are a special side.

I know you say they are young and such, but the 1968 team were very young, and they did have some special players, including the legendary Colm McAlarney, and they disappeared as fast as they came.

All of it is just a discussion and opinion, and old begrudgers like me think youneed to earn the prefix "great" before your name.

-Look at the Tyrone v Down game and although Tyrone controlled most of the game Down could still have won it only for great saves from Pascal McConnell towards the end. Antrim put up one of those good first round displays when the bigger teams are very vulnerable. On present form, which is the only form you can go by, Down would destroy Antrim. As for Donegal.....you would expect Down to comfortably beat Donegal at the moment. Shocks happen of course but Down are vastly superior to Antrim and saying there is little between them is tempting fate if Down come across Antrim next year.

-Down are a totally different team than they were a few months ago. They always had the skill, always had the players....but they have now adopted the ferocious workrate that defined teams like Tyrone. They learned this lesson against Tyrone. They have rectified these mistakes. They don't use Colgan as a sweeper anymore....actually they've pretty much scrapped the sweeper system. Poland, McComiskey, Coulter etc. are tackling defenders regularly which they did not do against Tyrone and allowed the Red Hands to play keep ball. The forward lines are constantly rotating presenting a nightmare for defenders. And of course the Down defence has shaped up very well which is probably the greatest achievement of the management.

-1968 team was indeed very young but in the days before back door systems one bad day and a year is gone...two bad days and two years are gone etc etc players become disheartened, confidence dwindles and things start to fall apart. The new system allows teams to regroup and improve. Had Down's season ended against Tyrone a few months back it would have been a serious psychological blow and disheartened many players. So if Down do win the All-Ireland and get knocked out of Ulster in the first round next year they can still regroup much like Armagh did in 2003. Who knows how the history of the GAA would have panned out if there had always been a backdoor.

bluearmy1 wrote:-Look at the Tyrone v Down game and although Tyrone controlled most of the game Down could still have won it only for great saves from Pascal McConnell towards the end. Antrim put up one of those good first round displays when the bigger teams are very vulnerable. On present form, which is the only form you can go by, Down would destroy Antrim. As for Donegal.....you would expect Down to comfortably beat Donegal at the moment. Shocks happen of course but Down are vastly superior to Antrim and saying there is little between them is tempting fate if Down come across Antrim next year.

-Down are a totally different team than they were a few months ago. They always had the skill, always had the players....but they have now adopted the ferocious workrate that defined teams like Tyrone. They learned this lesson against Tyrone. They have rectified these mistakes. They don't use Colgan as a sweeper anymore....actually they've pretty much scrapped the sweeper system. Poland, McComiskey, Coulter etc. are tackling defenders regularly which they did not do against Tyrone and allowed the Red Hands to play keep ball. The forward lines are constantly rotating presenting a nightmare for defenders. And of course the Down defence has shaped up very well which is probably the greatest achievement of the management.

-1968 team was indeed very young but in the days before back door systems one bad day and a year is gone...two bad days and two years are gone etc etc players become disheartened, confidence dwindles and things start to fall apart. The new system allows teams to regroup and improve. Had Down's season ended against Tyrone a few months back it would have been a serious psychological blow and disheartened many players. So if Down do win the All-Ireland and get knocked out of Ulster in the first round next year they can still regroup much like Armagh did in 2003. Who knows how the history of the GAA would have panned out if there had always been a backdoor.

In light of your comment about Down and Antrim next year, it is worth remembering that the 1968 team perished against antrim just two short years later.

First time in 13 years they hadn't reached the final.

All I am really saying is that take say Hughes and Loughrey of Antrim, or McKiernan of Down and Crozier of Antrim. on paper, you would have to say the antrim lads look better players.

Yeah...but...on paper....Down win more games. Better players = more victories. It figures.

bluearmy1 wrote:Yeah...but...on paper....Down win more games. Better players = more victories. It figures.

No it doesn't.

we know there are a number of better sides than Down who have not won as many games this year............