Re: my honest opinion of the 2009 championship.

Guest Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:13 pm

Jayo Cluxton wrote:Tyrone
Still the team to beat. I expect a big performance on Sunday and I imagine MH knows that they can relax the intensity for the next game if they win this one (no disrespect to Cavan or Antrim!). Have had some slurs about winning All Ireland from back-door so I’d imagine all are driven by thoughts of an Ulster win on way to back-to-back titles. Expect them to beat Derry well.

Derry – see above. Do not impress me much. I expect them to be in the qualifiers after next week.

Cork
Very impressive and are not the team of recent times that can beat Kerry in Munster but not in Croker. Mobile, extremely fit, very big, good full forward line, some stand-out players and play a high tempo game. I actually think their style would give Tyrone huge problems and would love to see the two teams meet this year – it could be the Final! Cork are real live contenders.

Kerry
Not impressed – carrying a few players over the years and are not getting away with it like they used to. Forward division very poor at the moment and Gooch right off his game. Galvin a liability and even if they get injured players back they are still short of Cork and Tyrone.

Mayo
No idea until maybe next week.

Galway
No idea until next game or even Connaught Final.

Dublin
A lot of stuff to be fixed and I am already beginning to doubt those on the sideline …. Can’t judge on Meath performance.

Kildare
Beat less than ordinary Offaly and struggled against an out of sorts Wexford team and suddenly they will be Leinster champions. Whatever ……

Meath not even worthy of a mention JC????

**Jayo Cluxton** Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:40 pm

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:
Jayo Cluxton wrote:Tyrone
Still the team to beat. I expect a big performance on Sunday and I imagine MH knows that they can relax the intensity for the next game if they win this one (no disrespect to Cavan or Antrim!). Have had some slurs about winning All Ireland from back-door so I’d imagine all are driven by thoughts of an Ulster win on way to back-to-back titles. Expect them to beat Derry well.

Derry – see above. Do not impress me much. I expect them to be in the qualifiers after next week.

Cork
Very impressive and are not the team of recent times that can beat Kerry in Munster but not in Croker. Mobile, extremely fit, very big, good full forward line, some stand-out players and play a high tempo game. I actually think their style would give Tyrone huge problems and would love to see the two teams meet this year – it could be the Final! Cork are real live contenders.

Kerry
Not impressed – carrying a few players over the years and are not getting away with it like they used to. Forward division very poor at the moment and Gooch right off his game. Galvin a liability and even if they get injured players back they are still short of Cork and Tyrone.

Mayo
No idea until maybe next week.

Galway
No idea until next game or even Connaught Final.

Dublin
A lot of stuff to be fixed and I am already beginning to doubt those on the sideline …. Can’t judge on Meath performance.

Kildare
Beat less than ordinary Offaly and struggled against an out of sorts Wexford team and suddenly they will be Leinster champions. Whatever ……

Meath not even worthy of a mention JC????

I think that assessment is quite good meself. I did not have the foresight of the various qualifier draws at the time. Some teams in green and gold got a really handy run in fairness.

**RMDrive** Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:59 pm

Jayo Cluxton wrote:
Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:
Jayo Cluxton wrote:Tyrone
Still the team to beat. I expect a big performance on Sunday and I imagine MH knows that they can relax the intensity for the next game if they win this one (no disrespect to Cavan or Antrim!). Have had some slurs about winning All Ireland from back-door so I’d imagine all are driven by thoughts of an Ulster win on way to back-to-back titles. Expect them to beat Derry well.

Derry – see above. Do not impress me much. I expect them to be in the qualifiers after next week.

Cork
Very impressive and are not the team of recent times that can beat Kerry in Munster but not in Croker. Mobile, extremely fit, very big, good full forward line, some stand-out players and play a high tempo game. I actually think their style would give Tyrone huge problems and would love to see the two teams meet this year – it could be the Final! Cork are real live contenders.

Kerry
Not impressed – carrying a few players over the years and are not getting away with it like they used to. Forward division very poor at the moment and Gooch right off his game. Galvin a liability and even if they get injured players back they are still short of Cork and Tyrone.

Mayo
No idea until maybe next week.

Galway
No idea until next game or even Connaught Final.

Dublin
A lot of stuff to be fixed and I am already beginning to doubt those on the sideline …. Can’t judge on Meath performance.

Kildare
Beat less than ordinary Offaly and struggled against an out of sorts Wexford team and suddenly they will be Leinster champions. Whatever ……

Meath not even worthy of a mention JC????

I think that assessment is quite good meself. I did not have the foresight of the various qualifier draws at the time. Some teams in green and gold got a really handy run in fairness.

Some teams in green and gold didn't tongue

**Jayo Cluxton** Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:05 pm

RMDrive wrote:
Some teams in green and gold didn't

Ha forgot those green and golds!! But Carlow (home), Clare (home), Derry! (home) and Galway - before Cork ..... surely no big complaints about the way the balls spun for Donegal!!

Guest Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:13 am

It would be great to get a nice handy run in the qualifiers to get a bit of momentum going.

**Jayo Cluxton** Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:49 am

samin10 wrote:It would be great to get a nice handy run in the qualifiers to get a bit of momentum going.

It would be great to get into the qualifiers!!!!!!!!!!

Guest Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:07 am

Is certainly a joke that provincial winners do not get a second chance when knocked out.

Guest Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:11 am

The way I look at it is as follows:

The All-Ireland Championships start with the first round qualifiers. The teams who do bad in the provincial championships have to play in the earlier rounds, with the teams who do slightly less bad playing in a later round until the provincial winners enter the All-Ireland series at the Quarter Finals. The likes of Dublin, Cork, Tyrone and Mayo are not at a disadvantage, they have won their province so therefore have earned the right to enter the All-Ireland at a later stage. The Premiership teams do enter enter FA Cup until the fourth round, you don't hear them complaining?

Guest Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:22 am

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:The way I look at it is as follows:

The All-Ireland Championships start with the first round qualifiers. The teams who do bad in the provincial championships have to play in the earlier rounds, with the teams who do slightly less bad playing in a later round until the provincial winners enter the All-Ireland series at the Quarter Finals. The likes of Dublin, Cork, Tyrone and Mayo are not at a disadvantage, they have won their province so therefore have earned the right to enter the All-Ireland at a later stage. The Premiership teams do enter enter FA Cup until the fourth round, you don't hear them complaining?

Have you ever been beaten in a quarter final as provincial champions? Its not nice, sitting around for four or five weeks waiting on a team coming through the back door who are playing every week or two. Usually they are flying fit as were the provincial winners have had no match practice for a month. The momentum is usually with the team coming through the qualifiers who also have the advantage of recognising their mistakes after their one defeat, re-group and go at it again. By the time the provincial winners learn their mistakes they are out. The FA cup is one defeat and your out, same for everyone. If you think the first round of the qualifiers is the first round of the all-ireland series then surely every team should be in it. Have the provincial championship and then start from scratch with everyone entering an "open draw" (use that term lightly) for the all-ireland.

**Thomas Clarke** Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:23 am

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:The way I look at it is as follows:

The All-Ireland Championships start with the first round qualifiers. The teams who do bad in the provincial championships have to play in the earlier rounds, with the teams who do slightly less bad playing in a later round until the provincial winners enter the All-Ireland series at the Quarter Finals. The likes of Dublin, Cork, Tyrone and Mayo are not at a disadvantage, they have won their province so therefore have earned the right to enter the All-Ireland at a later stage. The Premiership teams do enter enter FA Cup until the fourth round, you don't hear them complaining?

I agree totally. There has to be a line somewhere were second chances are done away with. I mean, what if Cork beat Tyrone but lose the all-ireland final - should they replay the all-ireland as it was Cork's first defeat?

The advantages of winning your province are:
the quickest route to the qtr finals;
less games = less chance of injuries/suspensions;
no tricky away ties;
tailor training better as you know exactly when your games will be played.

As an extra incentive, it could be that you get home advantage for your qtr final, but then all the counties want to play in Croke Pk anyway, so they probably wouldn't go for it.

Guest Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:30 am

disadvantages. sometimes up to a 5 week break waiting on your quarter final.

**Thomas Clarke** Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:37 am

samin10 wrote:disadvantages. sometimes up to a 5 week break waiting on your quarter final.

A fair point too, but that is more a problem of poor scheduling than the knockout system itself being unfair.

**Jayo Cluxton** Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:53 am

As a Dub I have to disagree TC - naturally!

There is no substitute for playing games and it is extremely difficult to be 5 weeks without playing a game and then find yourself back in C'ship action against a game hardened team with far more playing minutes under their belts. No training regime or even friendly games can replicate this. The other team will also have 3/4 wins under their belts and confidence will be high and they will have developed far greater understanding among the players and their game plan will be more honed.

A lot of 'bigger' counties have no huge interest in the provincials anymore and its currency is certainly devalued so maybe its time to give something else a go for a year or two.

Guest Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:59 am

When Donegal were beat, the excuse that they had played too many games was used. Their players had played X amount of games in Y amount of weeks. When Dublin and Mayo got beat, the excuse that they hadn't played enough games was used.

Now no matter what sort of system is in place, you're not going to keep everyone happy. Eight teams reach the quarter-finals, only four can advance. Naturally enough, the teams that lose will probably try and blame everything bar we weren't good enough. The simple fact of the matter is that in 2009, Tyrone, Cork, Kerry and Meath have proved their superiority over the 28 other counties.

Guest Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:02 pm

In my opinion Tyrone and Cork are the only teams to prove anything so far.

**Jayo Cluxton** Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:07 pm

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:When Donegal were beat, the excuse that they had played too many games was used. Their players had played X amount of games in Y amount of weeks. When Dublin and Mayo got beat, the excuse that they hadn't played enough games was used.

Now no matter what sort of system is in place, you're not going to keep everyone happy. Eight teams reach the quarter-finals, only four can advance. Naturally enough, the teams that lose will probably try and blame everything bar we weren't good enough. The simple fact of the matter is that in 2009, Tyrone, Cork, Kerry and Meath have proved their superiority over the 28 other counties.

Well ultimately only one team will be good enough and they will be the best team. You will get luck of the draw situations where poor teams go a long way before meeting a quality team and often these teams may have been blitzed off the park in their province. They will eventually meet a good team and be embarrassed when their real shortcomings will be cruelly exposed as has happened before. Then you get the teams who have no luck in the draw - Monaghan, Armagh, Derry for example who don't come through the qualifiers when far inferior teams do. Nothing to do with ability - luck of the draw - thats all.

**Thomas Clarke** Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:13 pm

Jayo Cluxton wrote:As a Dub I have to disagree TC - naturally!

There is no substitute for playing games and it is extremely difficult to be 5 weeks without playing a game and then find yourself back in C'ship action against a game hardened team with far more playing minutes under their belts. No training regime or even friendly games can replicate this. The other team will also have 3/4 wins under their belts and confidence will be high and they will have developed far greater understanding among the players and their game plan will be more honed.

A lot of 'bigger' counties have no huge interest in the provincials anymore and its currency is certainly devalued so maybe its time to give something else a go for a year or two.

I agree Jayo that 5 weeks (or even 4) is too long, and that the schedule should be changed to take that into account, but I still stand over the knock-out rule having to come into effect at some stage.

Generally, the best teams will win their qtr finals more often than not, which is what you'd expect. Playing games can help, but it didn't do Donegal much good against Cork, purely because Cork are a much better side. And Dublin didn't lose to Kerry because Kerry had beaten Antrim the week before.

Teams are aiming to peak at different times of the year, depending on what their objectives are. The likes of Tyrone and Kerry can come through and win via the back door because they have had their training programmes laid out to peak in aug/sep, whereas other counties have maybe had a provinacial title as their goal.

As I see it, the system isn't flawed, but the scheduling is, and something has to be done about that, I agree. For me, a champions league format or more 2nd chances for losing sides will only lead to more meaningless games, and the teams playing in August/Sept will be the usual suspects anyway.

**Jayo Cluxton** Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:22 pm

Fair points TC but Dublin aside and if we are talking about peaking etc - is it not fundamentally wrong that Cork can win their provincial titles in 2006 and 2008 and then be beaten in the All Ireland series (semi final) by the same team they beat in the Munster Final - because Kerry had their eye on the bigger prize.

It makes a complete mockery of the provincials.

Guest Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:26 pm

Jayo Cluxton wrote:Fair points TC but Dublin aside and if we are talking about peaking etc - is it not fundamentally wrong that Cork can win their provincial titles in 2006 and 2008 and then be beaten in the All Ireland series (semi final) by the same team they beat in the Munster Final - because Kerry had their eye on the bigger prize.

It makes a complete mockery of the provincials.

No cream always comes to the top. Dublin beat Meath but where are Dublin now? Dublin's season was getting one over on their near neighbours which with the help of the referee, they did. Meath, on the other hand, had their eye on much bigger goals. You see the better teams set themselves bigger goals, the lesser teams like Dublin concentrate on smaller goals that they have a chance of seeing out.

**Jayo Cluxton** Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:29 pm

Yeah true. As your goals shift though do you get the refs help later on? Like he won't bother helping you in the first round of the Champo but will bend over backwards for you later on to make sure you win. That what you mean?

**Thomas Clarke** Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:35 pm

Jayo Cluxton wrote:Fair points TC but Dublin aside and if we are talking about peaking etc - is it not fundamentally wrong that Cork can win their provincial titles in 2006 and 2008 and then be beaten in the All Ireland series (semi final) by the same team they beat in the Munster Final - because Kerry had their eye on the bigger prize.

It makes a complete mockery of the provincials.

Perhaps, but what is the alternative. Scrap the provincials and have 33 sides chasing 1 prize, the all-ireland, that only about 3-4 of them have any hope of winning?

At least the provincials give half the teams in the country a prize to realistically aim for at the start of each championship season.

Guest Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:01 pm

Thomas Clarke wrote:
Jayo Cluxton wrote:Fair points TC but Dublin aside and if we are talking about peaking etc - is it not fundamentally wrong that Cork can win their provincial titles in 2006 and 2008 and then be beaten in the All Ireland series (semi final) by the same team they beat in the Munster Final - because Kerry had their eye on the bigger prize.

It makes a complete mockery of the provincials.

Perhaps, but what is the alternative. Scrap the provincials and have 33 sides chasing 1 prize, the all-ireland, that only about 3-4 of them have any hope of winning?

At least the provincials give half the teams in the country a prize to realistically aim for at the start of each championship season.

If the big guns are not worried about winning it then it is devalued. Im sure Fermanagh would love to win Ulster, but whats the point if Tyrone, Armagh and Derry are not even trying to win it (not saying they wouldnt be but you know what i mean). If you want a trophy for the lesser teams to aim for then split into two championships of 16. Division 1 and 2 playing for Sam Maguire and division 3 and 4 play for a lesser title.

Guest Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:26 pm

Samin I can guarentee you Derry would love an Ulster, I was only 9 years old when we won out last one, i hardly even remember it and I don't even think I was in Clones. A provincial means an awful lot to some counties.

Guest Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:41 pm

Bright-Oak wrote:Samin I can guarentee you Derry would love an Ulster, I was only 9 years old when we won out last one, i hardly even remember it and I don't even think I was in Clones. A provincial means an awful lot to some counties.

I suppose your right, its not good though when you win ulster and then your biggest rivals when the all-ireland, definately lessens the importance of an Ulster title.

**mid-mon man** Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:42 pm

Yeah Tyrone and Armagh aside, Ulster would be top priority for every other county I'd say. Derry have a very good panel of players but why look towards Sam before Ulster when it's been so long?

I'd dearly love Monaghan to win another Ulster of course, we've had an awful long time to wait! I seen us win a couple when I was young, and growing up watching our best ever team you think it's always going to be like that, but to have such a lack of success since is hard to take.

Sponsored content