Allianz NFL 2014

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:I would agree it's probably fairly close to Dublin's first fifteen. Having said that, a lot of forward lines will be looking at Dublin one to seven and say to themselves, we can do some damage here. Cluxton is definitely underperforming, McMahon is nothing more than a bully, O'Carroll is slow, Cooper is only in the team because the manager has some kind of love affair going on with him, McCarthy is a good attacker but defender not so sure, Devereux is inexperienced and Nolan is getting back from an illness. I don't see this Dublin side as formidable. Even in the forwards, they've lost Kilkenny from last year and Mannion's loss of form is a harsh reminder to all players what can happen if you take you're eye off the ball.

Assuming all that to be true, and there is truth in large parts of it, I'm still left wondering who is good enough to take advantage. It's not the mid-noughties when you had Tyrone, Armagh and Kerry, all top sides and all able to capitalise if a rival had an off-day. Of course, this is sport and upsets can happen but, as I see it, Dublin have a fair chunk of daylight between themselves and the next best side, whichever of half a dozen that may be.

The div 3,4 finals very enjoyable games credit to all four sides. I think Tipp,Ross just about deserved to win however Cavan,Clare both will know where they could have won it or had lost it.

Thomas Clarke wrote:

Gaa_lover wrote: Bookies reckon wins for Dublin,Donegal,Cavan,Tipp who is most likely to cause an upset?

Likelihood of an upset, in order:  Roscommon, Monaghan, Clare, Derry

The division 2&3 finals are close to 50/50 games, in my opinion.  Monaghan's injury doubts may count against them, but I think they'll take this game much more seriously than the group stage match.  

Cavan may find packing the defence tougher to do in Croke Pk than at Breffni, and the Rossies could trouble them if they get a start.

The division 1 final will be as competitive as Dublin allow it to be.

I should start issuing spoiler alerts with my predictions.  GAA-Lover, as a regular punter, I hope you have been making good money off me this spring.

I made money on Ross,Tipp double last night no bets on today. Dublin a stroll in the park that heavy defeat will knock Derry back a lot and they are unlikely to even win Ulster now. Donegal a pale shadow of their 2012 form i don't think they will ever rediscover that form. Ulster between Tyrone and Monaghan for me now.

Gaa_lover wrote:I made money on Ross,Tipp double last night no bets on today. Dublin a stroll in the park that heavy defeat will knock Derry back a lot and they are unlikely to even win Ulster now. Donegal a pale shadow of their 2012 form i don't think they will ever rediscover that form. Ulster between Tyrone and Monaghan for me now.

I agree with your views on the blows to Derry and Donegal, but wouldn't write off Derry's Ulster ambitions just yet. They have to beat Donegal at home and Antrim/Fermanagh at a neutral venue to make the final. If they do that, they'll have their confidence back and, given that there are no outstanding teams in the province, Derry would be very competitive in a final.

I didn't see either of yesterdays matches, but today's games were quite revealing.

Dublin did with Derry as they pleased.  Champers tried to tell me that Dublin were still sparring but, after 2 bitty performances, it was obvious that Gavin would want a big effort and picked his best side.  I thought that their pace and hunger for the broken ball was so impressive, and the likes of Flynn, MDMA and Bernard are shaking off their winter coats.  Nicky Devereux played well and will push hard for inclusion in the half-back line.

After the semi-final win over Mayo, I felt that Derry may end up regretting making the final.  Yes, Derry have improved from last year, but while they are fit and organised and some of their forwards have pushed on, they just don't have enough good players to compete with the best sides in the big games.  They have 2 old, slow midfielders who won't cut it in the summer, and they have no worthwhile replacements on the bench.  They will regroup and be a tough prospect for Donegal, but any delusions of an AI victory will have been dispelled today.

Monaghan's late changes strengthened their side, and it was obvious that they wanted this one.  They were hungrier and sharper on the breaks and, though never really pulling away, were the better side throughout.  Their performance tailed off a bit when they went a man up, but they rallied when they needed to late on.  They are strong, fast and organised.  They are also dirty and cynical, and should have received more than just the 2 black cards.  At this stage, I'd rate Monaghan as perhaps a top 6 side, but they won't be winning the AI.

Donegal must be worried.  A bright start to the league suggested that last year may have been an abomination, but they were well bested today in a game that Jimmy set out to win.  He picked 11-12 of his best side, and had sprung 2 more from the bench after c.20 minutes.  Donegal looked the same today as they did last summer - slow.  Monaghan ran past them down the middle on numerous occasions, and you have to wonder what the likes of Dublin would have done to them.  Murphy does not possess the engine of a midfielder, but they probably need to play him there for large chunks of the game.  They still have a lethal FF line, but keeping the 3 of them inside is a luxury that they can no longer afford.  

Being honest, I don't see where the required level of improvement can come from.  They are playing almost the same 15 for the 4th year in a row, and some of their great players (e.g. Lacey) just don't look the same anymore.  There could yet be a kick or two in them, but I really don't think that they have enough to properly challenge for an AI.

Just back from Dublin. Well done to Monaghan and Dublin. Agree completely with your assessment of DL TC. Nothing shown this year to suggest we are able to compete with Cork, Mayo, Tyrone, Kerry; never mind Dublin. I'm worried for Celtic park.

I was in Croke Park both days for the finals and thoroughly enjoyed the fare on view. The Tipp/Clare game gave me an up-close view of a couple of lads who were impressive (Gary Brennan and David Tubridy for Clare and young Quinlivan for Tipp) would make a lot of teams.

The Rossies were of course awesome.....Big, Big hoors, Shine coming back to form (he's a beautiful striker of a placed ball) Kilbride as cunning as ever, Cregg having a nightmare at 14 means he'll be relocated to the half-forward line for the championship, 4/5 U-21s to come in etc., we'll be lucky to get within 15 points of them in the Hyde on May 18th....It goes without saying they were stone mad happy with the victory...

Cavan very wasteful, blazing at the posts from impossible angles, failing to release/recycle when boxed in, they have work to do. Socks Dunne looked awful, Keating, while a tidy operator, has no peripheral vision whatsoever and Gearoid McKiernan should be instructed to pass it at all times.

Donegal look bunched, although the training camp may have affected this. They need new legs in too many places and will struggle with the pace of the modern game when it's all on the line. Monaghan are big, hardy and fit and appear to thrive on contesting contact football. Finlay remains a vital cog and seems ageless.
Hard to see how they'll fare as regards retaining the Anglo Celt cup, but the look a side with determination and focus who may fall victim to strict refereeing.

Dublin look awesome at this juncture, though truth be told Derry looked overawed. They play with an adventurous style that leaves them exposed at the back but it's hard to see where anyone can exploit this deficiency and close it out on them. Deveraux looked good at 6 and Brennan will have a battle to get back in.
O'Gara remains enigmatic, very strong and focussed but badly lacks an ability to find a colleague. Hard to see them beaten in Leinster at any rate or even further on.

TC I was only being polite

Boxty what does o'gara have to do to be accepted as the best 14 on this island,he was kicked punched grabbed back and verballed today and he just smiled ,Dublin to not have anyone like him that can take the hits from basically what ever the visiting players feel they have to do,to stop these Dublin forwards

Great to see his little girl on the field with her daddy,she was born all-ireland final weekend 2011 now that is progress  

loyal dublin Conceded 5-71 in the all ireland championship in 2013 in 6 games

if they repeat that again they will be champions

Attack the dublin full back line with high balls you will fail all day long,anybody can get lucky once with this tactic ,after that you have nothing and you will be steam rolled

THOUGHT ref was very poor today sent derry player off for black card for nothing,allowed derry to foul dublin players constantly in the first half where no advantage came from it,kev mc should have had penalty clearly pushed over

Dublin won't have another game till maybe august as i said a while back,A =B games will be more tougher than anything they will get from any county this year especially in leinster

Everything is looking good at the moment we have no challengers,wonder can one come out of the pack to keep it competitive this year?

champers wrote:

Boxty what does o'gara have to do to be accepted as the best 14 on this island,he was kicked punched grabbed back and verballed today and he just smiled

Before you all rush in I'll field this one.....

He needs to fulfil the role cast upon him, the role of the ideal full-forward. The standard bearer of the past 20 odd years has been a toss-up between Canavan and Joyce. Go back a generation further you have had Liston/Keaveney/Stafford, but the game has changed.

Canavan and Joyce both had that quintessential gift that marked them apart - vision/time/space. By guile, anticipation and quality they were mostly found with as little as 2 steps away from where the tackle was, that vital micro-second, to align the brain to the feet that resulted in that nano-second of delivery (whether go for the score themselves or off-load).
I'd hate to be too harsh on you or O'Gara, but he looks awfully un-cultured, a big strong lad, one-sided, game as a pebble but a poor mans Mossy Beirne.

champers wrote:
Boxty what does o'gara have to do to be accepted as the best 14 on this island,he was kicked punched grabbed back and verballed today and he just smiled ,Dublin to not have anyone like him that can take the hits from basically what ever the visiting players feel they have to do,to stop these Dublin forwards.....

....THOUGHT ref was very poor today sent derry player off for black card for nothing,allowed derry to foul dublin players constantly in the first half  where no advantage came from it,kev mc should have had penalty clearly pushed over

O'Gara is not the best FF in the country, nor next to near it. He is, however, a very effective target man playing in the best forward line around. He is quick for a man his size, turns extremely well (mainly to his right) and is willing to take a knock or two. His finishing has improved and he has fairly good awarness of those around him. Would he look as good if he was playing for a lesser side? Of course not, but he is playing well and doing a fine job for the Dubs.

I'm not a big fan of Jim Gavin, but I felt he was totally justified in leaving his comfy seat and going down to lambast the linesman during the first half. Dublin forwards were being fouled everytime they got the ball, and how McKeague failed to see black for his constant dragging of O'Gara is beyond me. The advantage rule was ignored on numerous occasions.

Thomas Clarke wrote:
Monaghan's late changes strengthened their side, and it was obvious that they wanted this one.  They were hungrier and sharper on the breaks and, though never really pulling away, were the better side throughout.  Their performance tailed off a bit when they went a man up, but they rallied when they needed to late on.  They are strong, fast and organised.  They are also dirty and cynical, and should have received more than just the 2 black cards.  At this stage, I'd rate Monaghan as perhaps a top 6 side, but they won't be winning the AI.

More a lurker than a poster these days(clearly), but TC I just wanted to know why you thought that? Yes there was a bit of needle in the game, no surprise there really especially with the recent history, but I thought we were far from the worst at it. After all we didn't get a man sent off for poking a player in the balls(out of character for Kavanagh though it was), yet you didn't mention that for your analysis of Donegal. And you say "are" rather than "were", implying we are dirty and cynical every game. I can't agree with that. I don't know how much you've seen of Monaghan this year especially, not much I'd wager, but there's a lot less of that than there used to be. We're playing more flowing football and taking good scores lately, some examples of which could be seen yesterday. I could understand that assessment in Banty's day, but the way the team play now is different than that.  Anyway, just an observation, everyone's entitled to an opinion but I think some people still base that opinion on a game we used to play. We're hardly angels but I think dirty and cynical is a bit strong.

Anyway, great win yesterday, the improvement under O'Rourke has been remarkable over the last year and a half.

Dublin were extremely impressive afterwards. If they keep their focus I fail to see a team that can stop them.

patk wrote:

Thomas Clarke wrote:
Monaghan's late changes strengthened their side, and it was obvious that they wanted this one.  They were hungrier and sharper on the breaks and, though never really pulling away, were the better side throughout.  Their performance tailed off a bit when they went a man up, but they rallied when they needed to late on.  They are strong, fast and organised.  They are also dirty and cynical, and should have received more than just the 2 black cards.  At this stage, I'd rate Monaghan as perhaps a top 6 side, but they won't be winning the AI.

More a lurker than a poster these days(clearly), but TC I just wanted to know why you thought that? Yes there was a bit of needle in the game, no surprise there really especially with the recent history, but I thought we were far from the worst at it. After all we didn't get a man sent off for poking a player in the balls(out of character for Kavanagh though it was), yet you didn't mention that for your analysis of Donegal. And you say "are" rather than "were", implying we are dirty and cynical every game. I can't agree with that. I don't know how much you've seen of Monaghan this year especially, not much I'd wager, but there's a lot less of that than there used to be. We're playing more flowing football and taking good scores lately, some examples of which could be seen yesterday. I could understand that assessment in Banty's day, but the way the team play now is different than that.  Anyway, just an observation, everyone's entitled to an opinion but I think some people still base that opinion on a game we used to play. We're hardly angels but I think dirty and cynical is a bit strong.

Anyway, great win yesterday, the improvement under O'Rourke has been remarkable over the last year and a half.

Dublin were extremely impressive afterwards. If they keep their focus I fail to see a team that can stop them.

Good to have you back, Pat.  Hopefully we''ll hear more from you over the next few months.

The Kavanagh incident was the stupidy of an individual but i thought that Monaghan's tactics were more systemic.  One period of play in the first half was in my mind when I wrote that, specifically the stifling of a Donegal attack.  Donegal turned the ball over and tried to bring it out of defence, yet on 3 occasions before they had reached their own 65 they had a man dragged to the ground.  Any of the 3 incidents could have been a black card, had Cormac Reilly deemed that rules were supposed to be enforced.  This wasn't at the end of the game in some desperate attempt to close out a win - it was early on and looked very organised and deliberate.

Throw in the 2 black cards that did come your way, and you get the idea.  I'd agree that it isn't at Banty levels, but it stoood out to me as being more than what I've been used to seeing from most other counties this year.

Still, that shouldn't distract from a very good league campaign. I've seen Monaghan twice this year, and on both occasions have been impressed.  They seem to have improved from last year, and look like a more confident side.  I think they are very possibly the second best side in Ulster at the minute, and should have a good run in the qualifiers.

Thomas Clarke wrote:

patk wrote:

Thomas Clarke wrote:
Monaghan's late changes strengthened their side, and it was obvious that they wanted this one.  They were hungrier and sharper on the breaks and, though never really pulling away, were the better side throughout.  Their performance tailed off a bit when they went a man up, but they rallied when they needed to late on.  They are strong, fast and organised.  They are also dirty and cynical, and should have received more than just the 2 black cards.  At this stage, I'd rate Monaghan as perhaps a top 6 side, but they won't be winning the AI.

More a lurker than a poster these days(clearly), but TC I just wanted to know why you thought that? Yes there was a bit of needle in the game, no surprise there really especially with the recent history, but I thought we were far from the worst at it. After all we didn't get a man sent off for poking a player in the balls(out of character for Kavanagh though it was), yet you didn't mention that for your analysis of Donegal. And you say "are" rather than "were", implying we are dirty and cynical every game. I can't agree with that. I don't know how much you've seen of Monaghan this year especially, not much I'd wager, but there's a lot less of that than there used to be. We're playing more flowing football and taking good scores lately, some examples of which could be seen yesterday. I could understand that assessment in Banty's day, but the way the team play now is different than that.  Anyway, just an observation, everyone's entitled to an opinion but I think some people still base that opinion on a game we used to play. We're hardly angels but I think dirty and cynical is a bit strong.

Anyway, great win yesterday, the improvement under O'Rourke has been remarkable over the last year and a half.

Dublin were extremely impressive afterwards. If they keep their focus I fail to see a team that can stop them.

Good to have you back, Pat.  Hopefully we''ll hear more from you over the next few months.

The Kavanagh incident was the stupidy of an individual but i thought that Monaghan's tactics were more systemic.  One period of play in the first half was in my mind when I wrote that, specifically the stifling of a Donegal attack.  Donegal turned the ball over and tried to bring it out of defence, yet on 3 occasions before they had reached their own 65 they had a man dragged to the ground.  Any of the 3 incidents could have been a black card, had Cormac Reilly deemed that rules were supposed to be enforced.  Throw in the 2 black cards that did come your way, and you get the idea.  I'd agree that it isn't at Banty levels, but it stoood out to me as being more than what I've been used to seeing from most other counties this year.

I've seen Monaghan twice this year, and on both occasions have been impressed.  They seem to have improved from last year, and look like a more confident side.  I think they are very possibly the second best side in Ulster at the minute, and should have a good run in the qualifiers.

Ha! We'll see about that!

Yeah I take your point about incidents like that. I haven't watched the game back on the telly yet but another incident that comes to mind is when we were breaking out of defence, Dessie I'm fairly sure, and similar to the moments you mention, Michael Murphy pulled him down around the midfield area(Cavanagh-esque if you will!). By the same logic that could easily have been a black card, but as you say Cormac Reilly deemed these to not be black card offences. A couple of the black cards that were awarded came at the end when it meant little, Hughes and McFadden(what was that for as I didn't see at the time?), and the Walshe black card is hard to argue with even if it wasn't a penalty. I don't think it was a dirty game in general, apart from the start of the second half when there was a bit of handbags, but yes a different ref could have made more use of the black card. The different interpretations of the black card is probably something we'll see later in the summer, hopefully not one that might impact a big game.

I'm pretty sure that McFadden's was for blocking a run off the ball. I saw a Donegal man take out a Monaghan player at the corner of the screen, and thought it was a black card. Play continued briefly and then next thing I saw was McFadden receiving black, so I can only assume that it was him who made the tackle off the ball.

Totally agree on the potential inconsistency that we'll experience this summer. Both games yesterday seemed to let a bit more go than I've seen so far this spring. And yes, Reilly's awarding of the penalty was a shocker. He had an unobstructed view of it from 10-15m away, as did both of his umpires. It really was a very, very poor call.

The umpire who the ref consulted for the penalty was the same one who incorrectly gave a Darren Hughes point as wide, which hawk-eye then showed was clearly inside the post! I also heard the early 45 he signalled for us was actually a wide, but again I haven't seen the replay of that so can't comment. Hopefully his eyesight will be sharper if he's back in Croke Park again.

patk wrote:The umpire who the ref consulted for the penalty was the same one who incorrectly gave a Darren Hughes point as wide, which hawk-eye then showed was clearly inside the post! I also heard the early 45 he signalled for us was actually a wide, but again I haven't seen the replay of that so can't comment. Hopefully his eyesight will be sharper if he's back in Croke Park again.

Yes, the wide that went over the bar was another awful decision - it was right beside him, but he was sleeping. As for the penalty, they both had as good a view of it as you'll ever have on a football field. Both unobstructed and both <15m away.

Goes back to the point I made a couple of days ago on another thread (U21, i think) about umpires, linesmen and refs being assessed and rewarded as a team in order to raise standards.

Speaking of black cards, thescore.ie have done an interesting breakdown by county and by the times the black cards were awarded. Only Dublin and Westmeath didn't get a black card in the league. Yesterday was the first time we got one which surprised me, hadn't thought about it but had assumed we would have picked up one over the course of the league.

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The county-by-county breakdown is as follows:
0 – Dublin, Westmeath.
1 – Meath, Galway, Limerick.
2 – Derry, Monaghan, Mayo, Armagh, Cavan, Leitrim, Tipperary, Clare, Roscommon, Laois.
3 – Tipperary, Donegal, Tyrone, Kerry, Cork, Carlow.
4 – Offaly, Fermanagh, Longford, Wexford, Louth, Waterford.
5 – Kildare, Wicklow, London, Sligo.
6 – Down, Antrim.

While here’s the breakdown of at what stage during the game, the offences occurred:
0-10 mins: 5
10-20 mins: 8
20-30 mins: 10
30-40 mins: 12
40-50 mins: 17
50-60 mins: 13
60-70 mins: 30

Bit surprised Dublin didn't get one as they're one of the counties I thought would be least affected by this rule, such is their strength in depth, but clearly they haven't had to "take one".

Boxtyeater wrote:

champers wrote:

Boxty what does o'gara have to do to be accepted as the best 14 on this island,he was kicked punched grabbed back and verballed today and he just smiled

Before you all rush in I'll field this one.....

He needs to fulfil the role cast upon him, the role of the ideal full-forward. The standard bearer of the past 20 odd years has been a toss-up between Canavan and Joyce. Go back a generation further you have had Liston/Keaveney/Stafford, but the game has changed.

Canavan and Joyce both had that quintessential gift that marked them apart - vision/time/space. By guile, anticipation and quality they were mostly found with as little as 2 steps away from where the tackle was, that vital micro-second, to align the brain to the feet that resulted in that nano-second of delivery (whether go for the score themselves or off-load).
I'd hate to be too harsh on you or O'Gara, but he looks awfully un-cultured, a big strong lad, one-sided, game as a pebble but a poor mans Mossy Beirne.

O'Gara will never be a joyce or canavan or close,but when the battle is at is highest he does not wilt or hide on the football pitch,Dublin have loads of better forwards but do they have the heart of O'Gara no they don't.

This is the third time in the last dozen years that the division 1 league final has been won by 8+ points. On both the previous occasions, the victors also went on to win the AI (Tyrone '03 and Cork '10). Hard to bet against it happening for a third time.

patk wrote:
While here’s the breakdown of at what stage during the game, the offences occurred:
0-10 mins: 5
10-20 mins: 8
20-30 mins: 10
30-40 mins: 12
40-50 mins: 17
50-60 mins: 13
60-70 mins: 30[/i]

More than the apportioning of black cards to the different counties, I found the most intetresting part of this to be when they happened in games. It's fairly evident that players are still very willing to take one for the team when the game is in the fire. Black card or no black card, we can still expect to see several ugly finishes to games this summer.

champers wrote: O'Gara will never be a joyce or canavan or close,but when the battle is at is highest he does not wilt or hide on the football pitch,Dublin have loads of better forwards but do they have the heart of O'Gara no they don't.

Fair reply champers....

Thomas Clarke wrote:

patk wrote:
While here’s the breakdown of at what stage during the game, the offences occurred:
0-10 mins: 5
10-20 mins: 8
20-30 mins: 10
30-40 mins: 12
40-50 mins: 17
50-60 mins: 13
60-70 mins: 30[/i]

More than the apportioning of black cards to the different counties, I found the most intetresting part of this to be when they happened in games.  It's fairly evident that players are still very willing to take one for the team when the game is in the fire.  Black card or no black card, we can still expect to see several ugly finishes to games this summer.

Givney burst through the Rossie defence towards the close of the game on Saturday and was nailed purposefully to stop his progress. Cynical surely but standard and I'd expect the same from any side. Yellow card given. Compare with Joe Dillon in the U21 game, drags down the Dublin corner back the entire length of the pitch away from the Cavan goal running towards his own endline and sees black. Doesn't seem like that's a rule achieving what it intended. Expect it to cause a shitstorm in at least a handful of high profile games this year.

champers wrote:

Thomas Clarke wrote:

champers wrote:Derry (NFL v Mayo) - Eoin McNicholl; Oisin Duffy, Conor McAtamney, Karl McKaigue; Charlie Kielt, Mark Craig, Aidan McAlynn; Emmett McGuckin, Niall Holly; Aaron Devlin, Danny Heavron, Carlus McWilliams; James Kearney, Declan Mullan, Ciaran McGoldrick.

Derry make 14 changes from team that beat Kildare,won't make for happy reading in the kingdom

Are Derry right or wrong to field a weakened team,they might be sorry if the meet mayo again

Maybe you should put Mayo out when you get the chance

This is the moment that Derry's season grinds to a halt.  I've seen momentum killing nonsense like this before.  They've rightly been praised up until now, but Beagle's boys could find it very tough to pick it up again from here on in, especially with either Tyrone or Dublin their likely semi-final opponents, followed by Donegal in the championship.

Agree when you build up a head of steam,you need to keep it going and see where it brings you.bad move by derry management

Derry's zenith was identified and their demise predicted on this very forum on the weekend of their last league game. It's never a good sign when managers try to be too smart...

Oh **** off TC!!!!