Tyrone v Sligo

**Thomas Clarke** Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:47 pm

After the worst performance from Tyrone under his charge, Mickey Harte is faced with a hugely important team selection for the game away to Sligo on Sunday. Will he go with the wholesale changes that the Donegal performance could justify, or will he seek to avoid mass panic and only tinker slightly?

It may only be February, but the team Mickey announces this week is likely to have a huge bearing on Tyrone’s prospects for 2011. I'm interested to hear the Tyrone viewpoint on this, and also the neutral’s take on whether or not it is time for Tyrone to make a radical change of direction.

**OMAR** Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:26 pm

As a general comment the last 20 years have shown us that in the modern game its never too early to start ringing the changes - We have seen a number of "very good" teams that held on to former greats for that extra two or three years ensuring that the team were on the national stage for a 5 year period and longer but the lack of turnover meant that when the changes did have to come - too many key positions became vacant at the one time
setting the team back for years.
It may be fair to say that the "older stagers" put in huge performances and may still have been the best player in the county in that position but it held back the team from refreshing on a phased basis

Examples

Cork Hurlers - Joe Deane Sean Og - The Rock - Gerry O Connor - Ben O COnnor
Armagh - Bellew/McGeeney/McConville/Marsden /Mcnulty/McGrane

On the flip side there have been counties that have dropped players still near enough their peak that any other county would have given their eye teeth for - but their was a younger option that was better for the team in the long run

Examples

Kerry - Maurice Fitz- Dara O cinneide- Mike Frank - Johnny Crowley - McGearilt
Kilkenny Hurlers - Charlie Carter/Cha Fitzpatrick/Dennis Byrne/Philly Larkin/Martin Comerford/Michael Cavanagh etc

So in summary - IF you take the Kilkenny team in particular the team had the same average age for the best part of a decade - Id say the Average age in the tyrone team must be 4 or 5 years higher than it was in 2003 which means at some stage they will end up dropping it by 3 or 4 years in one swoop which at some stage will be a problem.

The Tyrone team at present is similar in age and experience profile to the Armagh team of three years ago
and I'd fear that they already maybe a year too late in ringing the changes

**Grenvile** Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:06 pm

Tyrone need some fresh blood from somewhere but it doesn't seem like MH's style to make radical changes? I'd imagine he will just tinker somewhat.. It seems time for Dooher and O'Neill to say goodbye and while I'm sure Cavanagh has lots left to offer he needs a kick in the ****, perhaps that will come in the form of a place on the bench but sticking with him doesn't seem to be doing much. When was his last top quality performance?

Tyrone's Minor successes in the past 4 years hasn't turned into U-21 success, up to this point at least, is that the problem, players somehow lost in the years after minor?

I'm a huge fan of the Tyrone team both on and off the field and I would love to think that Harte has a grand plan for the year but it does seem as though his loyalty to the older generation has gone beyond what is necessary for future success of the County team..

**black&white** Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:15 pm

Thomas Clarke wrote:After the worst performance from Tyrone under his charge, Mickey Harte is faced with a hugely important team selection for the game away to Sligo on Sunday. Will he go with the wholesale changes that the Donegal performance could justify, or will he seek to avoid mass panic and only tinker slightly?

It may only be February, but the team Mickey announces this week is likely to have a huge bearing on Tyrone’s prospects for 2011. I'm interested to hear the Tyrone viewpoint on this, and also the neutral’s take on whether or not it is time for Tyrone to make a radical change of direction.

So long as Mickey names two midfielders then Tyrone should have enough to take the points at Markievicz.

Tony Taylor and Stephen Gilmartin are unable to compete for kick-outs in midfield (neither is physical enough, and Stephen isn't big enough), and we don't seem to have worked out any strategy for short/varied kick-outs (possibly due to our traditionally small wing backs).

Until Eugene Mullen returns from injury (a few months away yet) Sligo are going to struggle to win primary possession against every team, not just the good ones.

**bocerty** Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:54 pm

In yesterdays Irish News Mickey made the comment that Tyrone could no longer consider themselves a 'big scalp' - thats an interesting comment from the man himself and for me its confirmation that if he didnt know it already he realises he needs to make changes.

Any yet in todays paper he says he is content to stick with the squad he has and wont be calling up any new faces, he also says he wont be tempted to call up any U21s as their championship is on the horizon shortly and he doesnt want to do anything to jeopardise their chances of success.

Paddy Heaney has written an article today about Tyrone titled 'has the fire gone out of Tyrone' the main jist of it is that age has little to do with performances more likely that Tyrone players who have been on the road for close to 14 years in many cases have perhaps lost some of the hunger. He also points out that after Saturday nights game Stephen O'Neill left Healy Park without taking a shower, so all is not right in his head by the sounds of it.

It is also worth noting that the lads and Mickey have been through a tough time recently and perhaps it is going to take longer for them to get over it than we thought...............

**mugsys_barber** Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:55 pm

Do I see many changes for the Sligo match on Sunday, In short the answer would probably be No. As much as I'd like to not see Hub, Davy, McCarron start in favour of fresher faces there are a number of reasons why there won't be a radical shift in selection for Sligo.

Firstly the number of injuries to players like Jordan, Joe, Justin and Tommy McGuigan as well as the under 21's with Coney, Teague, Girvan and McNabb all out

Secondly, The U21's take on Down in Pairc Elser on the 16th of March and I would hope that Mickey will allow the u21 management to build a team to challenge for honours in this competition. Getting Down in the first round probably was the worst draw they could have got in Ulster. I feel it is important that this bunch of players achieve on the All ireland stage if they are to fulfill their promise at senior level.

With what is currently available on the panel I would like to see is McCaul in for McCarron. McCarron is decent under the high ball but a poor man marker and totally headless going forward. Pete Harte in half back instead of cousin Davy mainly because Davy is reasonably good in attack but doesn't want or has no interest in defending whatsoever. I would also like to see Cassidy and McKenna as a pairing in Midfield with Enda McGinley at 15 dropping deep to assist the midfield. Bye Bye Hub Idea

A half forward line of Penrose, McGuigan and Steven O'Neill and two man full forward line of Cavanagh and young McNeice. Full forward is probably where Cavanagh is going to get most success and the protection he craves from referees. A ref is more liable to award a free in his favour on the edge of the square as he's not getting much joy out the field with the close off the ball attention he has been dished out in the opening NFL fixtures.

**Thomas Clarke** Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:58 pm

bocerty wrote: He also points out that after Saturday nights game Stephen O'Neill left Healy Park without taking a shower, so all is not right in his head by the sounds of it.

That is very interesting Boc. I didn't realise that, but said to the auld fella on Sunday that I wouldn't be surprised to see Stevie O'Neill retired again in the very near future. It is painful to see how poor his form is at present, and I would fear that it might be gone for good. Stevie was always a confidence player and only ever played well when he had a good run of fitness behind him. He can't be enjoying his football at present.

**Thomas Clarke** Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:10 pm

The Cork hurlers analogy is a good one Omar. That side, like Tyrone, appeared to have a greater than normal drive and will to win, and it is hard to drop players with such great records and big personalities.

I would be making wholesale changes on Sunday and wouldn't be worried about the U-21s just yet - it is 2 weeks away, and you can't start trying to avoid injuries with 2 weeks still to go. I wouldn't agree with a lot of Mugsy's selection though - can't see how anyone could be picking O'Neill at present. I also think that you are a bit harsh on McCarron and I'd be persevering with him for a while longer.

I'd be dropping Ricey, Harte, Gormley, Hughes, McGuigan, O'Neill & Cavanagh. Of those 7, Cavanagh has to be back in the side come the summer, but the others would all be 2nd choice at present. For Sunday, I'd probably go with McCrory, McCarron and Quinn in the full back line, and McCaul, Carlin and Swift at half back. McGinley and Cassidy in midfield, as Cassidy badly needs game time. Half forwards would be Harte, Penrose & McKenna, and would play Girvan, Mugsy and McNeice in the full-forwards. I'd like to think that 9-10 of that side might show enough to be able to start in the summer, with Jordan, Colm Cav, the McMahons and Coney to come into contention as well.

We looked old and slow in 2009, same again last year - that isn't likely to change unless the personnel does.

**bocerty** Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:15 pm

Thomas Clarke wrote:
bocerty wrote: He also points out that after Saturday nights game Stephen O'Neill left Healy Park without taking a shower, so all is not right in his head by the sounds of it.

That is very interesting Boc. I didn't realise that, but said to the auld fella on Sunday that I wouldn't be surprised to see Stevie O'Neill retired again in the very near future. It is painful to see how poor his form is at present, and I would fear that it might be gone for good. Stevie was always a confidence player and only ever played well when he had a good run of fitness behind him. He can't be enjoying his football at present.

there could of course be other reasons why he left early but he did come in for quite a bit of personal attnetion for the duration of the game and it was a frustrating night for him as has this season to date (he and Cavanagh have managed 1 point from play between them in the last 2 games!!!) so i would think he wasnt in the best of form when he left - that said if he got one good game under his belt he could destroy a team on his own.

**Thomas Clarke** Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:19 pm

bocerty wrote: - that said if he got one good game under his belt he could destroy a team on his own.

I'm not convinced that he can anymore. When did he last destroy anyone for Tyrone? Stevie looks to have lost his pace, and also seems to be watching himself for fear of getting injured again. I hope I'm wrong, but I would be surprised if he came back to even 90% of what he was before.

**mugsys_barber** Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:44 pm

TC, I was really only picking the team for Sunday on players available, Girvan is injured and is in a race against the clock for the u21's, Mugsy only back from Cell block H in Oz and is a strange pinky colour (his skin that is). McNeice only back from bit of a holiday too with facial marks/stiches but I would be starting him regardless alongside the big Cav.

I would be surprised if that defence you have selected would be able to contain Clonoe's forward line never mind Sligo. I know you are calling for wholesale changes but honestly can't see us facing Monaghan without Gormley somewhere in the defence - The only stopper in the Tyrone panel. Trust me on McCarron TC just watch him more closely in the future - Headless sir Tyrone v Sligo 417703

**Thomas Clarke** Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:51 pm

Didn't realise Girvan was injured, but Mugsy should be starting and McNeice if he is fit.

I know what you mean about the defence, but where could you play Conor Gormley where he won't get roasted? We have played with a sweeper for the last 2 years to protect him. If we play 7 backs then of course play Gormley at 6, but not if we play 6 backs. He has been immense, but he is also a liability at 6 and even moreso at 3. Perhaps he will pick up some form by the summer, but he is no longer the rock that he once was.

Of the defence I picked, you'd be adding Jordan, Justy & Joe, plus whichever other 3 are in form. If McCarron can become a fullback (i like him as he has the size and speed to play the position), then we could release Justy to CHB. He is a luxury that we can no longer afford to keep in the fullback line. We need him on the ball 25-30 times per game instead of 8-9.

**mugsys_barber** Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:00 pm

TC I know Gormley quite well and he wouldn't be overly bothered about the NFL to be honest. He has been given a bit of a run around in the last 1 and 1/4 games he has played in alright. I don't think he is suited to full back either and openly admits to not really liking to play there. I would also like to see Justin released out the pitch but there is no reliable alternative at present so i'm afraid he'll still probaly be number 3 especially if we are in the championship long enough to meet Cork, Kerry or Bernard Brogan.

**bocerty** Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:11 pm

mugsys_barber wrote:TC I know Gormley quite well and he wouldn't be overly bothered about the NFL to be honest. He has been given a bit of a run around in the last 1 and 1/4 games he has played in alright. I don't think he is suited to full back either and openly admits to not really liking to play there. I would also like to see Justin released out the pitch but there is no reliable alternative at present so i'm afraid he'll still probaly be number 3 especially if we are in the championship long enough to meet Cork, Kerry or Bernard Brogan.

Mugsy its ok saying he is not that bothered about the NFL but opposing teams are starting to target Gormley in thier own team selction. Derry put a speed merchant on him and Donegal followed suit with the same net effect, he was roasted. I said last year his days as a top class defender were coming to and end largely due to his lack of speed and little has happened to change that - and i am not slagging him off or putting the man down just my own personal opinion. I also said last year that i would deploy him at the edge of the oppositions square and i still see that as an option for him with Coney and Penrose feeding off him.

**mugsys_barber** Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:45 pm

Gormley was our second best defender after Ricey on Saturday night. I wouldn't say he was roasted, What did McHugh score again? How much covering did he do for Davy and Carlins defensive misgiving on the night? He was on against Derry for all of 15 minutes and made an almighty block before having to go off as a result of this, fewer if any on the squad will put their body on the line like Gormley does and he is undoubtably in the top ten club footballers in tyrone but the man wouldn't be anything close to 100% fitness yet, We'll see what he is like on the 5th of June V Monaghan. Bar the two McMahons and Jordan who is better than Gormley in your opinion? Playing Gormley at full forward is for the birds Boc, your not serious lad. I would like to see a full back line consisting of Gormley, Justin and Joe if we reach Croke park in the Summer to compete with the Cork's, Kerry's and Bernard Brogans' of this world.

**bocerty** Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:54 pm

mugsys_barber wrote:Gormley was our second best defender after Ricey on Saturday night. I wouldn't say he was roasted, What did McHugh score again? How much covering did he do for Davy and Carlins defensive misgiving on the night? He was on against Derry for all of 15 minutes and made an almighty block before having to go off as a result of this, fewer if any on the squad will put their body on the line like Gormley does and he is undoubtably in the top ten club footballers in tyrone but the man wouldn't be anything close to 100% fitness yet, We'll see what he is like on the 5th of June V Monaghan. Bar the two McMahons and Jordan who is better than Gormley in your opinion? Playing Gormley at full forward is for the birds Boc, your not serious lad. I would like to see a full back line consisting of Gormley, Justin and Joe if we reach Croke park in the Summer to compete with the Cork's, Kerry's and Bernard Brogans' of this world.

Mugsy i wasnt at the game on Saturday and am going on what i heard from those who were at the game so apologies to Gormley if i seemed a bit harsh on him but he has a lot of miles on the clock, there is no doubting his ability as a footballer and he has few equals when it comes to commitment and his never say die attitude - to say he is in the top ten footballers in Tyrone is no great compliment to the man in all fairness!!!!

However week in week out he is coming up against younger fitter and faster players and it is impossible to ask the man to keep these lads quiet, your entitled to your opinion Mugsy but i feel Conors best days are behind him as a top class defender, and i am serious about deploying him at the other end of the field........

**mugsys_barber** Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:02 am

However week in week out he is coming up against younger fitter and faster players and it is impossible to ask the man to keep these lads quiet, your entitled to your opinion Mugsy but i feel Conors best days are behind him as a top class defender, and i am serious about deploying him at the other end of the field.........

.....And you are entitled to your opinion on Gormleys defensive qualities as well lad but as for the above - It may have worked for Carmen when they moved "Fred" Loughran and Raymond Munroe to the edge of the square in the absence of a natural full forward before they acquired or were lumbered with Dinky Rolling Eyes

but for me anyway Big Cavanagh is the only man for number 14 with penrose and Coney feeding off him....

**Boxtyeater** Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:26 am

black&white wrote:[Tony Taylor and Stephen Gilmartin are unable to compete for kick-outs in midfield (neither is physical enough, and Stephen isn't big enough), and we don't seem to have worked out any strategy for short/varied kick-outs (possibly due to our traditionally small wing backs).

Until Eugene Mullen returns from injury (a few months away yet) Sligo are going to struggle to win primary possession against every team, not just the good ones.

Apologies to the Tyrone lads here for interjecting, but it seems that B&W is already rattled by the impending championship clash V Leitrim...

FAO B&W....Colreavey (SF) a great punt at 9/4 IMO...

**Jayo Cluxton** Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:32 am

Good to see the Tyrone posters debate their good knowledge of the merits of players here - as a neutral I can only call it from what I see on a 'national' stage.
Hence I would be most critical of the team I now best - ie Dublin!

Firstly I think the landscape here has to be appreciated - these are tough times mentally and emotionally for Tyrone. January and since will have been a haze for the management and panel - don't forget that.

For what its worth I think MH is a little over-loyal alright. Cody may be the other way but his record leaves one unable to question him. I think MH has been very slow to drip feed underage players into the setup. The league is really the ideal place to do it and in that context I am happy to see Gilroy using some U21 players for us this year. And while loyalty is laudable in some ways - success and results are what matters - cue Cody again.

Some of Tyrone's marque players have been quite poor for 2/3 seasons now. If they know they are getting a jersey on Sunday then is that going to make them want to go the extra yard? I dunno. And systems - however successful can become stale - worse if they stop being successful. Familiarity too can breed contempt. A lot of conundrums there - but a few new faces could really freshen things up I feel.

**Thomas Clarke** Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:40 am

I guess people see games in different ways Mugsy. I thought that Gormley had a shocker last Saturday, and Ricey was nearly as bad. Tyrone's best defenders were Carlin, McCrory and McCarron (this is relative, as none of them were particularly good). McCrory & McCarron were left completely exposed and coped quite well until the pressure became too much.

A full-back line of the 2 McMahons and Gormley is, in my opinion, a fantasy. Tyrone can't afford to play one McMahon in the FB line, never mind two. Yes, they would shore up the defence, but we'd never get the ball out the field.

If the likes of McCarron, Carlin, Swift, McNabb, Quinn, McCrory etc aren't able to nail down a first team place after 4-5 league games, then certainly look at Ricey/Gormley again for the summer, but the lads who have never had the chance need to get first crack at it, not the boys who have found the pace a bit too much for their aging legs for the last 2 years.

**bocerty** Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:30 am

mugsys_barber wrote:However week in week out he is coming up against younger fitter and faster players and it is impossible to ask the man to keep these lads quiet, your entitled to your opinion Mugsy but i feel Conors best days are behind him as a top class defender, and i am serious about deploying him at the other end of the field.........

.....And you are entitled to your opinion on Gormleys defensive qualities as well lad but as for the above - It may have worked for Carmen when they moved "Fred" Loughran and Raymond Munroe to the edge of the square in the absence of a natural full forward before they acquired or were lumbered with Dinky but for me anyway Big Cavanagh is the only man for number 14 with penrose and Coney feeding off him....

Mugsy just to clarify i wasn't really questioning his defensive qualities, if he was marking a big forward (like Ronan Clarke) with little pace i would fancy Conor every time to come out on top in the dual. But nowadays forwards are lightning fast and it is becoming harder for the likes of Conor who was never the quickest anyway to keep up with them and that is were he is being exposed. His defensive qualities are not in question its the ability to get to the ball first and being able to stop the speed merchant going past him.

**Thomas Clarke** Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:16 pm

Well, Mickey has picked his side to play Sligo and made.....1 change - the goalkeeper.

I understand his thinking, but still can't believe it. pale

**mugsys_barber** Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:41 pm

My opening comment on this thread basically stated that I didn't expect much change to Sunday's line-up. Come to think of it the Goalkeeping position was the only area of the field that probably wasn't discussed. Maybe we all agreed on something Laughing

Personally I prefer to have big Packie between the sticks, Johnny Curran is a good enough shot stopper but his kick outs are far too unpredictable. I see Colm Cavanagh is named amongst the subs as well.

**patrique** Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:13 pm

Must be some goal keeper if he is going to kick start Tyrone on his own...........

**GAA-Fan** Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:12 pm

OMAR wrote:
As a general comment the last 20 years have shown us that in the modern game its never too early to start ringing the changes - We have seen a number of "very good" teams that held on to former greats for that extra two or three years ensuring that the team were on the national stage for a 5 year period and longer but the lack of turnover meant that when the changes did have to come - too many key positions became vacant at the one time
setting the team back for years.
It may be fair to say that the "older stagers" put in huge performances and may still have been the best player in the county in that position but it held back the team from refreshing on a phased basis

Examples

Cork Hurlers - Joe Deane Sean Og - The Rock - Gerry O Connor - Ben O COnnor
Armagh - Bellew/McGeeney/McConville/Marsden /Mcnulty/McGrane

On the flip side there have been counties that have dropped players still near enough their peak that any other county would have given their eye teeth for - but their was a younger option that was better for the team in the long run

Examples

Kerry - Maurice Fitz- Dara O cinneide- Mike Frank - Johnny Crowley - McGearilt
Kilkenny Hurlers - Charlie Carter/Cha Fitzpatrick/Dennis Byrne/Philly Larkin/Martin Comerford/Michael Cavanagh etc

So in summary - IF you take the Kilkenny team in particular the team had the same average age for the best part of a decade - Id say the Average age in the tyrone team must be 4 or 5 years higher than it was in 2003 which means at some stage they will end up dropping it by 3 or 4 years in one swoop which at some stage will be a problem.

The Tyrone team at present is similar in age and experience profile to the Armagh team of three years ago
and I'd fear that they already maybe a year too late in ringing the changes

McGrane and McGeeney would have been replaced with the likes of John Toal and Phillip Loughran, but Armagh have had to essentially skip a generation of footballers. If it wasn't thanks to injuries, we would be seeing Toal and Loughran nurturing their replacements now.

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