Re: Ciaran McDonald

Guest Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:23 pm

Loyal, if you want to believe that anyone who produces a moment of genius is a genius thats up to you. that means anyone who cooks a nice dinner is a masterchef, tells a funny joke means they are a comedian. I was watching soccer a.m this morning, they were showing clips of skill from last weeks games. Half the players you wouldnt even recognise, didnt hear anyone claiming they were genius'. Its a simple point i am making and if you cant understand it then it says more about you than it does me.

I was watching a junior championship game last week, a guy kicked three sideline balls over the bar, really not that difficult if given enough time and space to do it.

Sorry but for every fancy pass of the outside of the boot that found their target there was probably 3 or 4 misplaced, so basically for every moment of genius there was at least twice as many **** ups.

I never rated him too highly at anytime, but hey each to their own, believe and think what you want

**bocerty** Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:31 pm

Peter Solan the Great wrote:
Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:Laughable comments here from Peter Solan The Great and Samin10.

Laughable my ****, i'm merely pointing out the Thomas Clarke that Mayo werent a one man team and that while MacDonald was brilliant at times Mayo had other leaders there that took up the slack when MacDonald went missing.

PSTG is TC not entitled to his opinion in the same way you are - just because it doesnt concur with what you think it doesnt mean he is wrong. He is entitled to express his opinion as are you without being called a bully or other allegations being levelled against him by you or anyone else.

McDonald is one of the great enigmas of the GAA that divides opinion and always will - there is no doubt he was a wonderfully gifted footballer who could do things with a ball others could only dream of, but there are plenty out there who wouldnt have him on their teams!!!!

**Loyal2TheRoyal** Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:50 pm

samin10 wrote:Loyal, if you want to believe that anyone who produces a moment of genius is a genius thats up to you. that means anyone who cooks a nice dinner is a masterchef, tells a funny joke means they are a comedian. I was watching soccer a.m this morning, they were showing clips of skill from last weeks games. Half the players you wouldnt even recognise, didnt hear anyone claiming they were genius'. Its a simple point i am making and if you cant understand it then it says more about you than it does me.

I was watching a junior championship game last week, a guy kicked three sideline balls over the bar, really not that difficult if given enough time and space to do it.

Sorry but for every fancy pass of the outside of the boot that found their target there was probably 3 or 4 misplaced, so basically for every moment of genius there was at least twice as many **** ups.

I never rated him too highly at anytime, but hey each to their own, believe and think what you want

No Sam, your rationale is full of silly little analogies. Once I see the words "It's like" in a post, I tend to say to myself, here we go, I've won again. And of course, you were at a Junior Match last week where a player knocked over three sidelines. Did any intercounty footballer score directly from a sideline in this year's championship? Maybe there's a clue about all the "time and space" you need to pull it off.

Your lack of appreciation for a truly great footballer is a small bit astonishing. Dismissing what clearly only an exceptionally gifted footballer can do as "decent" and "over-rated" is very poor analysis in my opinion.

**Loyal2TheRoyal** Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:51 pm

GAA-Fan wrote:Personally I do not care. A point is a point don't care how beautiful it looks as long as it goes over the bar.

Obviously.

Guest Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:13 pm

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:
samin10 wrote:Loyal, if you want to believe that anyone who produces a moment of genius is a genius thats up to you. that means anyone who cooks a nice dinner is a masterchef, tells a funny joke means they are a comedian. I was watching soccer a.m this morning, they were showing clips of skill from last weeks games. Half the players you wouldnt even recognise, didnt hear anyone claiming they were genius'. Its a simple point i am making and if you cant understand it then it says more about you than it does me.

I was watching a junior championship game last week, a guy kicked three sideline balls over the bar, really not that difficult if given enough time and space to do it.

Sorry but for every fancy pass of the outside of the boot that found their target there was probably 3 or 4 misplaced, so basically for every moment of genius there was at least twice as many **** ups.

I never rated him too highly at anytime, but hey each to their own, believe and think what you want

No Sam, your rationale is full of silly little analogies. Once I see the words "It's like" in a post, I tend to say to myself, here we go, I've won again. And of course, you were at a Junior Match last week where a player knocked over three sidelines. Did any intercounty footballer score directly from a sideline in this year's championship? Maybe there's a clue about all the "time and space" you need to pull it off.

Your lack of appreciation for a truly great footballer is a small bit astonishing. Dismissing what clearly only an exceptionally gifted footballer can do as "decent" and "over-rated" is very poor analysis in my opinion.

Well Loyal i find it astonishing that someone feels he is a truely great footballer. Did it never
occur to you that maybe other players just think it more sensibe to hold onto the ball or play a simple pass than try the fancy s**t all the time, because they have the brains to realise that more often than not it does not work out (which was also the case with mcdonald, more often than not did not work out). If you want to talk about poor analysis loyal, how about you putting up a few clips of some great scores, why dont you watch through games see how much ball he won for himself, how many misplaced passes or shots there was to every bit of "genius".

Gifted footballer and truely great footballer are two very different things loyal. Have a look on youtube of some of Paddy McCourts goals for Celtic over the past few. Some unbelievable goals beating 4 and 5 men yet he can hardly get a game. For the simple reason Loyal there is a lot more to soccer just like there is a lot more to gaelic football than 10 or 15 seconds of brilliance worthy of youtube. Like i say each to there own because whilst i dont agree with you i do know that there are many like you who only remember the moments of brilliance

**GAA-Fan** Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:21 pm

Loyal, when you are walking past kids playing soccer on the street and you see one of them score a cracking goal do you think to yourself; Genius!

In all seriousness would you consider Ronan O'Gara a genius?

**patrique** Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:23 pm

Mayo are my 2nd team when it comes to football.

Can ye remember the Mayo sides of 96/97, and then the teams in the mid noughties.

There was no-one else on those teams capable of the score McDonald took to beat Dublin. No-one else would have had the self belief to attempt it.

McDonald had great strength, often ignored because of his braids, could carry the ball, and his poassing and scoring was what you travelled miles to see.

Someone mentioned the club championships. McDonald did win that single handidly, he looked a collossus at that level.

A wonderful footballer and worth the admission fee.

I liked John McEntee and certainly I would have had him in my team ahead of McGuigan.

But then a team selected by me would not have required Brian's particular gifts.

But McDonald was magnificent. Tyrone could have won 5 in a row with him, Kerry ten in a row.

**bocerty** Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:00 pm

the argument about McDonald, which incidentally has been debated time and time again always makes me think of Roberto Carlos - for years he was viewed by many as the best dead ball specialist in the world of soccer, until someone actually went to the bother of checking the statisitics and found that his record wasnt all that impressive in fact it was little short of sh1t.

I wonder if we were do the same with McDonald - if all his games were analysed and the stats produced such as score/shot ratio, passes completed, etc what would it tell us about him. We always remember the great things about players we like..........

**patrique** Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:19 pm

bocerty wrote:the argument about McDonald, which incidentally has been debated time and time again always makes me think of Roberto Carlos - for years he was viewed by many as the best dead ball specialist in the world of soccer, until someone actually went to the bother of checking the statisitics and found that his record wasnt all that impressive in fact it was little short of sh1t.

I wonder if we were do the same with McDonald - if all his games were analysed and the stats produced such as score/shot ratio, passes completed, etc what would it tell us about him. We always remember the great things about players we like..........

To me Bocerty that is the whole thing.

I can remember Mc Donalds great moments. Doubtless he had many mares but his great moments are exceptional because not too many other players have the skill or talent to equal it.

I can't remember any particular games played by Brian McGuigan. Now Brian is highly rated by many, alas not me. tonight I watched about 5 St Galls players fulfil a similar roll, Pollock, O'Neill, Ciaran McG, until the master came on after 40 minutes.

Joking aside, McGuigan played a vital link role, but in a million years he would never be capable of McDonalds individual feats.

I pay to be entertained and Ciaran did that.

**hipster 2** Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:41 pm

there is no such thing as a one man team , there is no doubt mc donald is talented but he was in a very good mayo team and to get to an all ireland final you need more than just one talented player , i would have loved to see him play with kerry and he might have been the difference for dublin over the years buts its all ifs and buts , but one thing i know if he is over his back problem tommy lyons will get him back out with mayo

**Jayo Cluxton** Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:49 pm

I agree that a player will not win a game on his own - though Maradona did win titles with his country and Napoli more or less on his own. In GAA it is not possible though Gooch would come close.

What the likes of McD had was the spark of genius to win a tight game - but PSTG is right - other Mayo players were equally important and should not be dismissed. However if Ciaran was not playing v Dublin in 2006 Mayo would not have won - simple as that.

Mc Geeney is the only player that I have seen that could more or less win a game for his team - not by his skill, genious etc but by the drive, motivation, never say die spirit and the example he set - and demanded - from those around him.

I like Brian McG and feel his career was definitely blighted by an horrendous injury - he was never the same after. Ironically - and this is not being funny - his vision was excellent but he was a shadow of himself after his injury - understandable. But Tyrone teams are such that if you heard Dooher or Cav or Ricey was out it didn't make a difference cos they were part of an excellent system. On the contrary if you were playing the Kingdom without Gooch then your chances went up a few notches.

As Pat says though - he likes to be entertained - so do I - and his Crossmolina point is very valid too. In the last decade and more the two players who stand out for me West of the Shannon are Ciaran Mc and P Joyce.

**hipster 2** Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:56 pm

jayo keith barr used to drag dublin through games how many times did he burst through for a goal

Guest Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:18 am

Jayo Cluxton wrote:I agree that a player will not win a game on his own - though Maradona did win titles with his country and Napoli more or less on his own. In GAA it is not possible though Gooch would come close.

What the likes of McD had was the spark of genius to win a tight game - but PSTG is right - other Mayo players were equally important and should not be dismissed. However if Ciaran was not playing v Dublin in 2006 Mayo would not have won - simple as that. No doubt jayo but you could probably pick any tight game and say the winner would not have won without the standout player of the day. My only issue is that i think that one game stands out in peoples minds when analysing him. To me it was just a game when everything went right for him.

Mc Geeney is the only player that I have seen that could more or less win a game for his team - not by his skill, genious etc but by the drive, motivation, never say die spirit and the example he set - and demanded - from those around him.

I like Brian McG and feel his career was definitely blighted by an horrendous injury - he was never the same after. Ironically - and this is not being funny - his vision was excellent but he was a shadow of himself after his injury - understandable. But Tyrone teams are such that if you heard Dooher or Cav or Ricey was out it didn't make a difference cos they were part of an excellent system. On the contrary if you were playing the Kingdom without Gooch then your chances went up a few notches.

As Pat says though - he likes to be entertained - so do I - and his Crossmolina point is very valid too. In the last decade and more the two players who stand out for me West of the Shannon are Ciaran Mc and P Joyce.

I like to be entertained too, to be honest that mayo dublin semi final was about as entertaining as your ever likely to get, i just feel it was more of a one off. I be as entertained by a great save, a great block, brilliant catch as i do a fancy point. Maybe thats just why i dont get as hyped up about McDonald, to me he had one aspect to his game that he was too keen to show off (the fancy stuff all the time), and very little else to his game.

**Jayo Cluxton** Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:30 am

Nah Samin - unfair. The guy has superb vision and a range of passing I haven't seen that often. He sees passes that others don't. Saw him in the All Ireland Semi in 2000 I think v Na Fianna in Longford and he was class. Nearlly won the game on his own.

ps Na Fianna lost the semi to some Armagh crowd .. Very Happy

Guest Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:56 am

Jayo Cluxton wrote:Nah Samin - unfair. The guy has superb vision and a range of passing I haven't seen that often. He sees passes that others don't. Saw him in the All Ireland Semi in 2000 I think v Na Fianna in Longford and he was class. Nearlly won the game on his own.

ps Na Fianna lost the semi to some Armagh crowd ..

jayo i will never be convinced about him no matter how hard anyone tries. Obviously you're getting at my point earlier i made to loyal about John McEntee getting man of the match whilst mcgeeney was marking him in all-ireland club final that year??????

**Jayo Cluxton** Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:10 am

No Samin - not going there at all tbh. I am not trying to convert anyone to CMD - I just enjoyed him and he is my type of player - but then so is Geezer!

ps And I meant that Na Fianna were beaten iin the Final by some Arnagh team!

Guest Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:23 am

Jayo Cluxton wrote:No Samin - not going there at all tbh. I am not trying to convert anyone to CMD - I just enjoyed him and he is my type of player - but then so is Geezer!

ps And I meant that Na Fianna were beaten iin the Final by some Arnagh team!

jayo, if anyone looks at those clips loyal posted and didnt look any further they would believe he was the greatest player of all time. there is no doubting some of the things he did were brilliant, but some people are attracted to that type of players (and thats fine), i just think a guy like John McEntee, McGuigan, Galvin, dooher (even though i hate him), Geraghty, O'Sullivan, McConville bring far more to a team than what McDonald ever could. Guys that are willing to do everything and anything for their team as half forwards and are still around to kick points when their team needs them. I think as an individual he was a good pllayer, but that is part of the problem for me. He seemed to be more worried about himself and looking the superstar than he was about the team, i really dont think he would have got a game for Armagh or Tyrone in 00's to 07's

**Jayo Cluxton** Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:39 am

samin10 wrote:i really dont think he would have got a game for Armagh or Tyrone in 00's to 07's

Yup I agree and have made that type of point earlier I think Samin. But I think the man is much maligned too - but so be it ...

Guest Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:46 am

Jayo Cluxton wrote:
samin10 wrote:i really dont think he would have got a game for Armagh or Tyrone in 00's to 07's

Yup I agree and have made that type of point earlier I think Samin. But I think the man is much maligned too - but so be it ...

ah well, feck it. I have been stating my case on this issue for three or four years between here and that HS. Never changed anyones opinion there or here and nobody changed mine so no to worry.

**patrique** Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:17 am

Strange how you get stuck with abn unwarrented reputation and it never leaves you.

I always thought McDonald should have been a bit more selfish with mayo, and done a bit more on his own, instead of dropping back helping out the defence.

Of course he had travelled from all over Ireland to attend training and such, so maybe he felt like one of the boys.

**Loyal2TheRoyal** Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:17 am

I'm not sure how a player of McDonald's ability can be dismissed so easily but then again I have to ask myself if those dismissing him actually believe what they say or just don't like to give credit to anything Mayo-related. Or if they actually understand what is being debated here.

Certainly, if a player like McDonald came up through the under-age system in Meath, he'd be beatified and canonized by the time he was 21. But then again, thats what we like here in Meath. I'm sure its the same in counties like Offaly, Kerry, Tyrone and Dublin.

Probably the closest we had to McDonald was Trevor Giles but even he wasn't close to the passer that McDonald was. So maybe thats why I appreciate him more. I'm sure there are some great names in Armagh like a McEntee twin who were better than Giles.

In all seriousness though, bar Maurice Fitz, McDonald was surely the best kicker of an O'Neills that ever graced a GAA pitch. And I, myself, would rate McDonald better simply because neither Maurice foot, left or right, could match McDonald's left. An incredible strike of a ball and I don't think a finer footballer will ever exist for a long, long time.

Guest Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:45 am

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:I'm not sure how a player of McDonald's ability can be dismissed so easily but then again I have to ask myself if those dismissing him actually believe what they say or just don't like to give credit to anything Mayo-related. Or if they actually understand what is being debated here.

Certainly, if a player like McDonald came up through the under-age system in Meath, he'd be beatified and canonized by the time he was 21. But then again, thats what we like here in Meath. I'm sure its the same in counties like Offaly, Kerry, Tyrone and Dublin.

Probably the closest we had to McDonald was Trevor Giles but even he wasn't close to the passer that McDonald was. So maybe thats why I appreciate him more. I'm sure there are some great names in Armagh like a McEntee twin who were better than Giles.

In all seriousness though, bar Maurice Fitz, McDonald was surely the best kicker of an O'Neills that ever graced a GAA pitch. And I, myself, would rate McDonald better simply because neither Maurice foot, left or right, could match McDonald's left. An incredible strike of a ball and I don't think a finer footballer will ever exist for a long, long time.

Well gaelic football if fooked if thats the case.

Also to even mention him in same sentence as the great Maurice Fitzgerald is laughable

**Peter Solan the Great** Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:43 am

bocerty wrote:
Peter Solan the Great wrote:
Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:Laughable comments here from Peter Solan The Great and Samin10.

Laughable my ****, i'm merely pointing out the Thomas Clarke that Mayo werent a one man team and that while MacDonald was brilliant at times Mayo had other leaders there that took up the slack when MacDonald went missing.

PSTG is TC not entitled to his opinion in the same way you are - just because it doesnt concur with what you think it doesnt mean he is wrong. He is entitled to express his opinion as are you without being called a bully or other allegations being levelled against him by you or anyone else.

McDonald is one of the great enigmas of the GAA that divides opinion and always will - there is no doubt he was a wonderfully gifted footballer who could do things with a ball others could only dream of, but there are plenty out there who wouldnt have him on their teams!!!!

MacDonald was a brilliant footballer, but all i want is credit for the other Mayo lads. David Brady etc. To say we wholly relied on MacDonald is pure ignorance. He didnt even win an all star in 2006.

**bocerty** Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:15 pm

Peter Solan the Great wrote:
bocerty wrote:
Peter Solan the Great wrote:
Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:Laughable comments here from Peter Solan The Great and Samin10.

Laughable my ****, i'm merely pointing out the Thomas Clarke that Mayo werent a one man team and that while MacDonald was brilliant at times Mayo had other leaders there that took up the slack when MacDonald went missing.

PSTG is TC not entitled to his opinion in the same way you are - just because it doesnt concur with what you think it doesnt mean he is wrong. He is entitled to express his opinion as are you without being called a bully or other allegations being levelled against him by you or anyone else.

McDonald is one of the great enigmas of the GAA that divides opinion and always will - there is no doubt he was a wonderfully gifted footballer who could do things with a ball others could only dream of, but there are plenty out there who wouldnt have him on their teams!!!!

MacDonald was a brilliant footballer, but all i want is credit for the other Mayo lads. David Brady etc. To say we wholly relied on MacDonald is pure ignorance. He didnt even win an all star in 2006.

that means fook all PSTG - Brian Mc Guigan missed out on an All Star in 2005 all because Peter Canavan was retiring and he got the sympathy vote - winning or not winning of All Stars is no reflcection of how good or bad you are - watch out for this years and tell me they are the best 15 in the country!!!!!

I agree with you about the othe players who done as much if not more work as McDonald but they could never do things with a ball that he could. We have the same arguemnt up here in tyrone about Canavan etc but interestingly enough probably the best footballer i have seen in the last 10-15 years in Tyrone was Ger Cavlan - a bit like CMD he had great vision a great pair of hands and a wonderful footballing brain - i watched the 03 s/f agaisnt Kerry recently and he was without doubt the best palyer on the field in the first half at least - and yet not too many would list him in their top 5 of best foootballers in Tyrone.

**patrique** Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:33 pm

Myself and Thomas clarke always rated Cavlin.

In 1996 after Meath had "taken out" what they thought to be the main men, Cavlin was wonderful.

And just like a certain centre half forward I saw last night, his high fielding was excellent as well........

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