Re: The League Cup

**patrique** Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:30 pm

Jonsmith wrote:"Big teams win big trophies" Therefore this United team are the ONLY big team in England. According to you patrique..

I however have not succumbed to the Sky Sports, Mickey Harte, only the biggest trophy is worth winning, mentality like you have, so I am willing to give that label to most teams that play in the Champions league on a regular basis.

Man United's 800 Million in debt wasn't anything to do with buying players or wages. United's earning through success more than pay for that.
That may be confusing to you patrique as numbers aren't your strong point (as evidenced by your 800 million comment) but in simpler terms: United will be still be a big club long after Sheik Mansour tires of his Man City plaything.

Jaysus all them lads playing for free.

No need for any cuts in the UK then.

And there was me thinking Wayne was in for a £50,000 a week pay rise.

And all them lads joined for free.?

Jaysus why can't City get the like of Rooney, and Berbie for nothing?

How come they are in debt by the way?

**patrique** Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:32 pm

hipster 2 wrote:patrique ask mal does he remember the moulder arms and the sugar loaf and st josephs in luton had many a drink with him ashley and mick harford and other luton greats

He doesn't live next door now Hipster, that is when I was young. His dad, Mal senior, taught my dad how to drive.

But he might be at the county final tomorrow night to see St Galls......

**hipster 2** Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:51 pm

st galls in another final The League Cup - Page 2 Icon_lol

must be something in the water up there

**Grenvile** Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:07 pm

patrique wrote:

Jaysus all them lads playing for free.

No need for any cuts in the UK then.

And there was me thinking Wayne was in for a £50,000 a week pay rise.

And all them lads joined for free.?

Jaysus why can't City get the like of Rooney, and Berbie for nothing?

How come they are in debt by the way?

Now you might not know being a City fan but when you play in the Champions league and finish high in the PL as well as all the other income associated with being a top club TV rights etc you EARN the money to buy players and pay their wages. United's debt was saddled on the club by the glazers who borrowed the money to buy United, the interest is now adding up and crippling the club.

Did you really think United spent 800 million on transfers and wages!? C'mon pat you're letting yourself down here.. I mean United have only an average net transfer cost of around 7 million a year since the PL began.

**Jayo Cluxton** Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:00 am

Jonsmith wrote:Now you might not know being a City fan but when you play in the Champions league and finish high in the PL as well as all the other income associated with being a top club TV rights etc you EARN the money to buy players and pay their wages. United's debt was saddled on the club by the glazers who borrowed the money to buy United, the interest is now adding up and crippling the club.

Jesus JS (and B&W) stop trying to put Man U on the high moral ground. They are where they are through the one thing that drives business .. greed. Who let the Glazers buy the club? Who let them saddle the debt on the club?

Best club in the world ............ outflanked by a few US wide boys ... ho ho ho !

**Grenvile** Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:41 am

I'll put it this way Jayo.

Sean Quinn, Billionaire Businessman. Got to the top through hard work, success building on success. Taking chances. Ruthless, definitely. A bad investment and suddenly he's in trouble. Did you laugh when you heard that? Were you delighted to see his demise? If anyone said he got where he was by hard work would you turn around and tell them greed was his downfall and point out that he was ruthless in the past?

Or would you have equal respect for someone never lifted a finger, inherited Billions from a long lost relative and suddenly attempt to put him out of business.

**patrique** Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:52 am

Jonsmith wrote:
patrique wrote:

Jaysus all them lads playing for free.

No need for any cuts in the UK then.

And there was me thinking Wayne was in for a £50,000 a week pay rise.

And all them lads joined for free.?

Jaysus why can't City get the like of Rooney, and Berbie for nothing?

How come they are in debt by the way?

Now you might not know being a City fan but when you play in the Champions league and finish high in the PL as well as all the other income associated with being a top club TV rights etc you EARN the money to buy players and pay their wages. United's debt was saddled on the club by the glazers who borrowed the money to buy United, the interest is now adding up and crippling the club.

Did you really think United spent 800 million on transfers and wages!? C'mon pat you're letting yourself down here.. I mean United have only an average net transfer cost of around 7 million a year since the PL began.

So United actually earned loads of money and owe 800 million.

must have spent 1.8 billion on players then.

Sorry for the underestimate.

So, 1.8 billion wins you the League Cup. City have a long way to go.

**Jayo Cluxton** Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:57 am

Jonsmith wrote:I'll put it this way Jayo.

Sean Quinn, Billionaire Businessman. Got to the top through hard work, success building on success. Taking chances. Ruthless, definitely. A bad investment and suddenly he's in trouble. Did you laugh when you heard that? Were you delighted to see his demise? If anyone said he got where he was by hard work would you turn around and tell them greed was his downfall and point out that he was ruthless in the past?

Or would you have equal respect for someone never lifted a finger, inherited Billions from a long lost relative and suddenly attempt to put him out of business.

JS - I have respect for SQ - have never laughed or been delighted at his demise - bad for Sean and the country. But whatever way you look at it, he either got eaten by the sharks or else he got greedy. If he as eaten by the sharks then he wasn't the genius he was supposed to be ... if it was greed then ....

We are all getting by. I have a credit card for 20 years plus ... I have never paid interest on it. I spend what I have. If I gamble (on horses, football, lottery etc) a loss will not break me ... Thats sensible I think - whether it be one euro, one thousand euro or one million euro ..............its all the same thing ... judgement.

**Grenvile** Sat Sep 25, 2010 12:42 pm

Who's poor judgement was it though Jayo? The players? The fans? Or a tiny minority of club officials and the prospective owners.. And I don't buy into the "greed" thing. Where is the line drawn between drive to succeed and greed? I'm sure there was nothing SQ could have bought with his second million that he couldn't have bought with his first. If the venture had paid off it wouldn't have been greed it would have been shrewd investing. Does SQ lose the right to claim he is more knowledgeable about business than the person who inherited their money??
It's just easier to laugh at United's demise when it doesn't have a face.

As for Patrique well I'm sorry I did my best but I'm no teacher so I won't be able to explain football financing to the mathematically challenged. But get your calculator and study this table:

# Net Spend 92 - 2010 Purchased Gross Sold Nett Per Season

1 Manchester City £546,180,000 -£117,803,000- £428,377,000- £22,546,158
2 Chelsea £585,640,000- £203,875,000- £381,765,000- £20,092,895
3 Tottenham £394,550,000- £201,717,500- £192,832,500- £10,149,079
4 Liverpool £437,355,000- £249,120,000- £188,235,000- £9,907,105
5 Manc United £426,750,000- £290,790,000- £135,960,000- £7,155,789
6 Aston Villa £261,240,000- £138,725,000- £122,515,000- £6,448,158
7 Newcastle £316,195,000- £198,225,000- £117,970,000- £6,208,947
8 Sunderland £193,465,000- £88,530,000- £104,935,000- £5,522,895
9 Birmingham City £139,345,000- £58,575,000- £80,770,000- £4,251,053
10 Fulham £129,281,000- £52,895,000- £76,386,000- £4,020,316
11 Everton £218,245,500- £162,270,000- £55,975,500- £2,946,079
12 Wolves £84,919,000- £39,045,000- £45,874,000- £2,414,421
13 West Brom £93,880,000- £52,367,501- £41,512,499- £2,184,868
14 Arsenal £273,440,000- £237,574,000- £35,866,000- £1,887,684
15 Stoke City £59,890,000- £24,030,000- £35,860,000- £1,887,368
16 Bolton £85,070,000- £65,270,000- £19,800,000- £1,042,105
17 Blackburn Rovers £186,162,000- £176,135,000- £10,027,000- £527,737
18 Wigan £82,365,000- £77,142,500- £5,222,500- £274,868
19 Blackpool £6,002,500- £4,785,000- £1,217,500- £64,079

**Loyal2TheRoyal** Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:47 pm

City should kick on and win the League from this. Defensively very strong and a class act in Tevez.

Lack of guile in this Chelsea side badly exposed today.

**patrique** Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:32 pm

I am a teacher, and I always taught people that you could do anything with statistics.

Statisically you are better being seriously drunk when driving because one in three killed is. That means two are sober.

Net spend over 20 years? When Man City's sale of Robinho was not counted, and when run of the mill players like carrick now cost 20 million instead of 10?

And 80 million for Ronaldo, to radically changethe picture, and bankruptcy fot the last few years so they couldn't spend.

Put it this way.

I used to drink 20 to 25 pints every single day until 1990. If I was to start again and drank 3 a day, my net spend would be more.

In short, net spend me ****.

Ye will be getting like Fergie next, trying to con people that United haven't really played the bottom two teams this year and failed to beat them.That's what "Chelea have had an easy start" translates as.

**patrique** Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:34 pm

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:City should kick on and win the League from this. Defensively very strong and a class act in Tevez.

Lack of guile in this Chelsea side badly exposed today.

But they haven't played any BIG teams yet. City have had an easy start, Chelsea, Spurs and Liverpool.

When the meet the big sides United have faced.........

**Jayo Cluxton** Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:47 pm

When you work damn hard to build a business and risk it all on an investment that is bad judgment JS.

Not interested in net spend blah blah blah either. As I have said to B&W on this subject United rode roughshod over clubs for years - poaching, tapping up etc. Chelsea got a few bob and they didn't like it and now the neighbours have a few bob they hate it. Their merchandising, worldwide brand etc is second to none so whoever let the club get to this juncture needs serious questioning. But I enjoy it tbh even though I have loved a lot of the United style in recent years. I can't stand the bully at the top though ... and he a big 'union' man ... apparently.

**Grenvile** Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:22 am

The figures are there Pat. You can look at them any way you like and take whatever you think is distorting the picture out but at the end of the day United still have never thrown money around like City have. Make sure to realise when looking at that United's spend was over a very successful 18 year period. City have only really started spending in the past 3 years and have managed to get to the TOP of the spending table. It does make bits of your "United spent 800 million" argument so I assume you'll ignore it and keep posting factually inaccurate drivel. I will no longer feel the need to prove you wrong.

And also, United drew with Everton who are bottom and beat West Ham who are second to bottom. But you were right to chance saying they failed to beat the bottom two and hoping nobody would notice, makes your point sound less foolish.
Then again Sir Alex knows that at the end of the season Everton won't be bottom and neither will anyone else who United played so far, apart from maybe West Ham. But there's a good chance that those who Chelsea defeated, West Brom, Wigan, Blackpool, will be. Sir Alex knows that, as does anyone who follows the Premier League, patrique unfortunately seems not to.

Jayo I can see how people wouldn't like Fergie. Personally I think he's great. He's a terrible loser, that's what makes him such a winner. But he's one of the best managers that the game has seen nobody can deny that. He had perfected mind games to a fine art. 2 years ago Liverpool should have had the league wrapped up. Fergie suddenly begins to make a few little comments to Benitez and he loses his cool along with the League. Fantastic stuff.

**Jayo Cluxton** Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:03 am

JS to be honest here I was a big Leeds fan going back to 71/72. And soccer was my choice of game as a player. But my loyalties lie with the Dubs and the GAA, cos Ii can identify with them - Bohs much less so now but I was a big fan in the Jackie Jameson days. When players started earning €100K a week (now double in some cases ) - I lost interest. For what is ostensibly 1 and a half hours work guys are earning more in a week than I do in 4 years! Sick! Not to mention global poverty!So I enjoy a good game of soccer but am sickened by the crap that goes with it and don't think much about it any more.

But as for Fergie - I disagree - as argued with B&W before. For a club of their standing, 2 Champs League in his tenure is piss poor. Look at who knocked them out over the years - bum teams who didn't go on to win it. Yet he rarely learned. United had all the wealth, class and 'influence in England for 20 odd years yet the Bully won just two lucky Champ Leagues. Paisley and Shanks are streets ahead.

**patrique** Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:20 am

Fergie had two "fortunate" wins with the richest club in the World. Imagine City won two between now and 2034? Do you think Mancini would still be manager?

**patrique** Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:22 am

Of course he wouldn't because I know who would. The world's top manager.....

In his last 17 premier games Mark Hughes has only lost TWO games. Statistic.

In his last 17 premier games Mark Hughes has only won TWO games. Statistic.

I suppose a lot depends on what way you say that.

**patrique** Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:23 am

Jayo Cluxton wrote:When you work damn hard to build a business and risk it all on an investment that is bad judgment JS.

Not interested in net spend blah blah blah either. As I have said to B&W on this subject United rode roughshod over clubs for years - poaching, tapping up etc. Chelsea got a few bob and they didn't like it and now the neighbours have a few bob they hate it. Their merchandising, worldwide brand etc is second to none so whoever let the club get to this juncture needs serious questioning. But I enjoy it tbh even though I have loved a lot of the United style in recent years. I can't stand the bully at the top though ... and he a big 'union' man ... apparently.

Union man my rectum.

The man owns race horses.

**Grenvile** Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:27 pm

patrique wrote:Fergie had two "fortunate" wins with the richest club in the World. Imagine City won two between now and 2034? Do you think Mancini would still be manager?

Of course not, because City bought a team of established players most of whom were extremely overpriced, United have never done that so expectations were never as high! Then again I'm sure Sir Alex would invest more wisely than the likes of Lescott and Robinho, Mancini seems to be slightly better than Hughes but he will be judged at the end of the season. To beat Chelsea to the title they'll have to be beating Stoke and Birmigham etc.

Also I'm not familiar with this concept of a "fortunate win".. Do you not get the cup if the win is fortunate? Do they just give you the handles or what happens? You certainly don't get the prize money, do you?? I always believed you Won, Lost or Drew a game of football.

Oh wait, by "fortunate" do you mean Terry and Anelka not being able to beat Van Der Sar from the penalty spot? And Bayern not being able to defend to the final whistle?

**patrique** Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:03 pm

Jonsmith wrote:
patrique wrote:Fergie had two "fortunate" wins with the richest club in the World. Imagine City won two between now and 2034? Do you think Mancini would still be manager?

Of course not, because City bought a team of established players most of whom were extremely overpriced, United have never done that so expectations were never as high! Then again I'm sure Sir Alex would invest more wisely than the likes of Lescott and Robinho, Mancini seems to be slightly better than Hughes but he will be judged at the end of the season. To beat Chelsea to the title they'll have to be beating Stoke and Birmigham etc.

Also I'm not familiar with this concept of a "fortunate win".. Do you not get the cup if the win is fortunate? Do they just give you the handles or what happens? You certainly don't get the prize money, do you?? I always believed you Won, Lost or Drew a game of football.

Oh wait, by "fortunate" do you mean Terry and Anelka not being able to beat Van Der Sar from the penalty spot? And Bayern not being able to defend to the final whistle?

**patrique** Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:06 pm

Jonsmith wrote:
patrique wrote:Fergie had two "fortunate" wins with the richest club in the World. Imagine City won two between now and 2034? Do you think Mancini would still be manager?

Of course not, because City bought a team of established players most of whom were extremely overpriced, United have never done that so expectations were never as high! Then again I'm sure Sir Alex would invest more wisely than the likes of Lescott and Robinho, Mancini seems to be slightly better than Hughes but he will be judged at the end of the season. To beat Chelsea to the title they'll have to be beating Stoke and Birmigham etc.

Also I'm not familiar with this concept of a "fortunate win".. Do you not get the cup if the win is fortunate? Do they just give you the handles or what happens? You certainly don't get the prize money, do you?? I always believed you Won, Lost or Drew a game of football.

Oh wait, by "fortunate" do you mean Terry and Anelka not being able to beat Van Der Sar from the penalty spot? And Bayern not being able to defend to the final whistle?

I think they just used the same script, Bayern hit the bar/post a few times, as did Chelsea.

In 1999 bayern played them off the pitch, simple.

In 2008 they won on penalties.

Penalty wins rely a lot on fortune.

That fool Hughes, they cant give away the people he bought.

Lescott is on a par with rio ferdinand as a waste of money, especially as it turns out the holding mid fielder and a youngster already on the books are better centre halfs.

**The Puke** Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:07 pm

Jonsmith wrote:
patrique wrote:Fergie had two "fortunate" wins with the richest club in the World. Imagine City won two between now and 2034? Do you think Mancini would still be manager?

Of course not, because City bought a team of established players most of whom were extremely overpriced, United have never done that so expectations were never as high! Then again I'm sure Sir Alex would invest more wisely than the likes of Lescott and Robinho, Mancini seems to be slightly better than Hughes but he will be judged at the end of the season. To beat Chelsea to the title they'll have to be beating Stoke and Birmigham etc.

Also I'm not familiar with this concept of a "fortunate win".. Do you not get the cup if the win is fortunate? Do they just give you the handles or what happens? You certainly don't get the prize money, do you?? I always believed you Won, Lost or Drew a game of football.

Oh wait, by "fortunate" do you mean Terry and Anelka not being able to beat Van Der Sar from the penalty spot? And Bayern not being able to defend to the final whistle?

Didn't Berbatov and Veron both cost roughly the same Robinho....

**OMAR** Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:20 pm

[quote="The Puke"]

Jonsmith wrote:
patrique wrote:Fergie had two "fortunate" wins with the richest club in the World. Imagine City won two between now and 2034? Do you think Mancini would still be manager?

Didn't Berbatov and Veron both cost roughly the same Robinho....

Pretty much - Also Ruud would have been a transfer record at the time as was Andy Cole, as was Rio as was Roy etc etc

**Grenvile** Sun Sep 26, 2010 8:40 pm

I'm still confused patrique, if you hit the bar often enough does i count as a goal? If you play the opposition off the pitch for 90 minutes and then let them win do you still get the trophy? I also wasn't aware that penalties relied on luck. Was it this "luck" you speak of that caused Anelka to hit the ball at waist height 3 feet from the right of Van der Sar?

Yes but Berbatov has scored far more goals for United than Robinho managed with City.. And looks to be coming into himself this season. Veron was indeed a flop. But there was always that risk in buying a foreign player. Lescott was one of the best defenders in the PL before he moved to City.

And the players OMAR has mentioned all proved to be worth the price paid for them (in the context that any footballer is worth that amount of money)

**Dr.Shephard** Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:47 pm

So Sligo Rovers won it with a slender 1-0 win over Monaghan United.
A good crowd witnessed a most enjoyable game which Rovers should have won by more. But both sides certainly gave it everything, played their best teams available and both managers turned up in person rather than send their deputies,
I think it is now fair to say that it is a myth that teams don't care about the league cup.

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