Re: A farewell to Kerry & Tyrone...

**Thomas Clarke** Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:12 am

BlueArmy, Patrique is correct when he talks about the difference in Tyrone's style of play and that of teams of the past. Kerry & Dublin had players dropping back in the '70s, as did Meath, Down, Derry and many others in the '80s and '90s. I wasn't talking about players dropping back, and never mentioned the 'blanket defence' (along with 'total football', that is a phrase I've never used to describe Tyrone).

Tyrone's style of play was different to Down's, for instance, in that the pressure was generally applied higher up the field and, as Patrique says, by all 15 players. Tyrone were also able to sustain this pressure for longer than Down or Meath were, due to improved conditioning.

I strongly disagree when you say that Tyrone and Kerry weren't the top sides of the last 25 years. Kerry won 4 all-irelands in 6 years, and were beaten by the eventual champions in the other 2. Tyrone won 3 in 6 years, and between 2003-5 were an exceptionally good side.

The Cork side you refer to was not, in my opinion a great side by any means. In fact, anyone who saw the 1988 replay would know that they weren't even as good as the Meath team of that era, such was the total dominance of the Royals that day. It is only a slight exaggeration to say that Cork were a one man team, with Larry Tompkins acting as chief scorer, playmaker, ball winner and leader. He had some good players alongside him, but take Tompkins out, and Cork were no better than average. Also, I always felt that Cork won their all-irelands after Meath were slightly past their best.

Down were a good side in 1991, and an excellent side in 1994. I would rate them highly, but their inconsistency, coupled with the hammering of 1993, would prevent me from rating them among the top couple. It is very hard to imagine Kerry (04-09) or Tyrone being destroyed in the Marshes the way Down were. Armagh would never have been hammered like that either.

Jayo, I don't think that Dublin or Armagh missed out on all-irelands due to the back door. The reality is that, if losing in your province meant that you were out altogether, I can't believe that Kerry would have lost so many Munster ties against Cork, nor can I imagine that Down would have beaten Tyrone in 2008. The top sides aim to peak in August/September, hence they are usually more vulnerable in May or June.

Armagh came very close to winning the 2000 and 2005 all-irelands, perhaps closer even than they came when they made the final in 2003, but their weakness was always putting teams away, allowing opponents to linger around and sneak a victory, even when outplayed (Fermanagh '04 and Tyrone '05 being prime examples).

So, for me, lots of good sides in the last 25 years (Galway 98-01 being another very talented side), but for me it has to be Tyrone and Kerry leading the way.

Guest Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:49 am

Thomas Clarke wrote:BlueArmy, Patrique is correct when he talks about the difference in Tyrone's style of play and that of teams of the past. Kerry & Dublin had players dropping back in the '70s, as did Meath, Down, Derry and many others in the '80s and '90s. I wasn't talking about players dropping back, and never mentioned the 'blanket defence' (along with 'total football', that is a phrase I've never used to describe Tyrone).

Tyrone's style of play was different to Down's, for instance, in that the pressure was generally applied higher up the field and, as Patrique says, by all 15 players. Tyrone were also able to sustain this pressure for longer than Down or Meath were, due to improved conditioning.

I strongly disagree when you say that Tyrone and Kerry weren't the top sides of the last 25 years. Kerry won 4 all-irelands in 6 years, and were beaten by the eventual champions in the other 2. Tyrone won 3 in 6 years, and between 2003-5 were an exceptionally good side.

The Cork side you refer to was not, in my opinion a great side by any means. In fact, anyone who saw the 1988 replay would know that they weren't even as good as the Meath team of that era, such was the total dominance of the Royals that day. It is only a slight exaggeration to say that Cork were a one man team, with Larry Tompkins acting as chief scorer, playmaker, ball winner and leader. He had some good players alongside him, but take Tompkins out, and Cork were no better than average. Also, I always felt that Cork won their all-irelands after Meath were slightly past their best.

Down were a good side in 1991, and an excellent side in 1994. I would rate them highly, but their inconsistency, coupled with the hammering of 1993, would prevent me from rating them among the top couple. It is very hard to imagine Kerry (04-09) or Tyrone being destroyed in the Marshes the way Down were. Armagh would never have been hammered like that either.

Jayo, I don't think that Dublin or Armagh missed out on all-irelands due to the back door. The reality is that, if losing in your province meant that you were out altogether, I can't believe that Kerry would have lost so many Munster ties against Cork, nor can I imagine that Down would have beaten Tyrone in 2008. The top sides aim to peak in August/September, hence they are usually more vulnerable in May or June.

Armagh came very close to winning the 2000 and 2005 all-irelands, perhaps closer even than they came when they made the final in 2003, but their weakness was always putting teams away, allowing opponents to linger around and sneak a victory, even when outplayed (Fermanagh '04 and Tyrone '05 being prime examples).

So, for me, lots of good sides in the last 25 years (Galway 98-01 being another very talented side), but for me it has to be Tyrone and Kerry leading the way.

Totally disagree with this bit, i believed before the semi final of 05 that the winners of Tyrone and Armagh would win the all-ireland. Basically Tyrone won through the backdoor, no one will ever be able to tellme that Tyrone would have beaten Armagh in Ulster final if it was a case that they would have been out. 06 quarter final, Armagh had no game for 5 weeks after winning Ulster, Kerry were playing every week or every other week. Armagh were totally dominant in the first half (should have been alot further ahead), about ten minutes into the second half the legs were gone and we were blown away. (not saying forsure that we would have won, but the backdoor certainly played a major part as kerry were flying fit and Armagh got caught on the day, about a year later Seamus Moynihan ststed this as a major reason for Armaghs collapse, with Tyrone gone that year i think the Armagh v kerry game was the final) those two spring to mind for me. Although most Armagh players would tell you 04 was the one that got away.

**Thomas Clarke** Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:21 am

I agree with you about the 2005 semi-final being the crucial game that year Samin, just as it was in 2000 when Armagh should have beaten Kerry.

Armagh dominated the 2005 semi, but Tyrone had dominated the 2 Ulster finals, and only for the dubious sendings-off would have won Ulster that year. If we say that Armagh were unlucky to lose to Tyrone in the all-ireland semi, it should also be rememberred that they were lucky to beat them in Ulster in the first place.

In 2006, I don't think that Armagh were as strong. It was aging legs, not lack of match practice that cost you. In the first half against Kerry, McGeeney spent all his time shuttling back and forth from CHB to the position just in front of Bellew and Donaghy. It was when he got too tired to do this in the 2nd half that Star ran riot. This was age, not match practice. Armagh were on the slide by that stage, mainly because McGeeney was finished, and McGrane was getting there too.

2004, certainly this was one that got away, but I don't think you can use winning Ulster as an excuse for not beating Fermanagh. Fermanagh were a side that Armagh should have beaten comfortably, but didn't.

In my opinion, Armagh were a very fine side, who would probably have won more than one all-ireland in a different era (the late '80s or late '90s, for instance). In the current era, we will never know, as they were twice nudged out by Tyrone, and once by Kerry, both excellent sides. The Fermanagh defeat, as you rightly say, is the hardest to explain.

Guest Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:07 pm

Thomas Clarke wrote:I agree with you about the 2005 semi-final being the crucial game that year Samin, just as it was in 2000 when Armagh should have beaten Kerry.

Armagh dominated the 2005 semi, but Tyrone had dominated the 2 Ulster finals, and only for the dubious sendings-off would have won Ulster that year. If we say that Armagh were unlucky to lose to Tyrone in the all-ireland semi, it should also be rememberred that they were lucky to beat them in Ulster in the first place.

Alot of ifs and buts there T.C, i agree Tyrone probably should have won Ulster and Armagh should have won the semi. If that had of happened would you not say that the backdoor cost Tyrone? Which is what my point was. Also which game was it the Tyrone keeper caught an Aaron Kernan free kick a yard over the goal line. Again its things that could have changed games. Whilst we were lucky to beat Tyrone in Ulster the reality is it was a backdoor team that beat us. So in that sense it was the backdoor that cost us.

In 2006, I don't think that Armagh were as strong. It was aging legs, not lack of match practice that cost you. In the first half against Kerry, McGeeney spent all his time shuttling back and forth from CHB to the position just in front of Bellew and Donaghy. It was when he got too tired to do this in the 2nd half that Star ran riot. This was age, not match practice. Armagh were on the slide by that stage, mainly because McGeeney was finished, and McGrane was getting there too.

It was actually about 4 crunching of the ball shoulder to chest (fron Galvin) that knocked the stuffing out of McGeeney. I dont beieve it was aging legs as it was Darragh O Se and Moynihan that drove Kerry forward that day (2 guys similar in age to McGeeney and McGrane). There was a 5 week break prior to that game for Armagh (something that everyone is now complaining about when it happens to them). The legs were gone, Paul McGrane played 5 county championship games in 2008, he got 3 MON awards so i cant agree that two years earlier he was finished.

2004, certainly this was one that got away, but I don't think you can use winning Ulster as an excuse for not beating Fermanagh. Fermanagh were a side that Armagh should have beaten comfortably, but didn't.

Not using winning Ulster as an excuse, there is no excuse for being beaten by Fermanagh but the reality is if there was no backdoor then we would have been straight into a semi final and Fermanagh would not have been there.

In my opinion, Armagh were a very fine side, who would probably have won more than one all-ireland in a different era (the late '80s or late '90s, for instance). In the current era, we will never know, as they were twice nudged out by Tyrone, and once by Kerry, both excellent sides. The Fermanagh defeat, as you rightly say, is the hardest to explain.

**Jayo Cluxton** Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:16 am

Thomas Clarke wrote:Jayo, I don't think that Dublin or Armagh missed out on all-irelands due to the back door. The reality is that, if losing in your province meant that you were out altogether, I can't believe that Kerry would have lost so many Munster ties against Cork, nor can I imagine that Down would have beaten Tyrone in 2008. The top sides aim to peak in August/September, hence they are usually more vulnerable in May or June.

TC, your point taken - but I am pointing out that if Dublin won 5 in a row pre qualifier days they would surely have at least made a final - similarly Armagh would have made more finals than they did with their Ulster wins. Mickey is giving out about it now (and he has a point) but whenever a Dub broached it, it was laughed at - in other words, tough they said. MH knows the ropes well by now as do Kerry - yet they got caught at the QF as provincial champions, Maybe they did not peak soon enough?

I stand by the point that Dublin, closely followed by Armagh, have been the biggest losers of the qualifying era.

**bluearmy1** Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:47 pm

ThomasClarke I think you should acknowledge the fact that the Qualifiers have had a major impact on the Championship and Tyrone and Kerry were the chief benefactors. If there had always been back doors many teams would have been able to show consistency. It's impossible to say the Down team of the early 90s was 'inconsistent' on the basis that they lost 2 Championship games between their victory in 91 and the victory of 94. Ulster was much more competitive in the early 90s than it has been the past few years...from 91-95 four different Ulster teams appeared in the All-Ireland final with 3 of them winning the title. The Down team of the 90s was a great team....they were beaten by a great Derry team in 93, that great Derry team was beaten by Down the next year.

These greta teams got no second chances.

**Thomas Clarke** Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:14 pm

BlueArmy, I think some of our differences of opinion stem from our definition of 'great'. I don't use the term as liberally as you do. I certainly wouldn't apply it to that Derry side, and I don't think I would use it to describe Down either.

And Down were inconsistent. The performance they put in against Derry in the Marshes was exceptionally poor for a side of their talent, and even more so when you see what they did 12 months later to the same Derry side. They were equally poor a year further on, when going out against an over-the-hill Donegal.

Again, I'm not saying they weren't a very fine side, which they were, but I just don't use the term 'great', for players or sides, that freely.

**bluearmy1** Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:00 pm

Tyrone were defeated in 2008 by a Down team that had still to mature. In 2005 they were beaten by an Armagh team that never really became the force it threatened to be.

Without the back-door Tyrone would not have been able to bounce back from these defeats. Therefore the comparison between the Tyrone team's success in the Championship in recent years with the success of other counties before the back door system was introduced is limited. Down could well have come back in 92 to win an All-Ireland and in 93 as well; this is made more probable by the fact that they still had a team of top class players in 94.

Had it not been for the back door, I honestly believe Armagh could have had two more All-Irelands. Cork would almost certainly have had one All-Ireland title. Mayo could have had one.

Therefore it is hard to say that Tyrone and Kerry are the two leading teams of the past 25 years because had the qualifiers been there for the past 25 years the whole complexion of the Championship would have been changed. Without the qualifiers Fermanagh would never have got to the All-Ireland semi final to knock out Armagh in 2004, Down would never have got the chance to beat Kerry this year, Tyrone would still be sitting on one All-Ireland.

The difference between my idea of great teams and your idea of great teams is that mine acknowledges that the qualifier system makes an 'era of success' easier to achieve. Therefore, the greatness of Tyrone and Kerry from 2003-2009 is hard to compare with that of former champions before the qualifiers.

**Thomas Clarke** Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:30 pm

I can't agree with you at all. The all-ireland champions are, ultimately, the side who deserves to win it.

Of course Down might have come back from their hammering in 1993, but maybe Derry would have beaten them in 1994 if they had met again. Maybe Dublin or Donegal would have come through and beaten them in 1991. Down won what they won.

You say that championships are easier to win now because you get a 2nd chance, but you have to remember that everyone else does also. Do you think Cork find them easier to win now, having to beat Kerry not once, like they did in 89-90, but twice? Do you think that Down would have fancied meeting Derry again in 1994? The best side wins.

And look at the stats:

Kerry: 2000-2010 5 All irelands, 7 Munsters, 3 NFLs
Tyrone 2000-2010: 3 all-irelands, 5 Ulsters, 2 NFLS
Down: 1990-2000: 2 all-irelands, 2 Ulsters, 0 NFLs
Derry: 1990 -2000: 1 all-ireland, 2 Ulsters, 4 NFLs

Stats aren't everything, but they do count. Down and Derry were very good sides, but not great in my opinion. In my opinion, they just didn't win enough to be considered great.

**GAA-Fan** Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:55 pm

This is the problem with the backdoor and I have always thought, how can you be the best when you have been beaten.

**Thomas Clarke** Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:28 pm

GAA-Fan wrote:This is the problem with the backdoor and I have always thought, how can you be the best when you have been beaten.

By winning the final GF. You are thinking in the logic of 10 years ago. At the start of the year, every side knows the rules of the competition. The winners are the side who win the games that count most.

Are Spain not worthy world soccer champions, even though they lost to Switzerland in a group game?

**bluearmy1** Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:06 pm

ThomasClarke had Meath won the All-Ireland title this year would any of us really have felt they deserved it? You can talk about deserving to win a game on the day but in terms of All-Irelands we could say a lot of counties 'deserve' titles for the hardwork put in by players and management. We could say counties like Fermanagh and Antrim deserve titles as they put so much hard work in but just don't have the resources of other counties.

And of course Derry might have bounced back in 94....that Derry team was exceptional and ultimately were only a shade away from defeating Down in 94. This is exactly what I'm getting at, had there been second chances who would have been the major teams? Could Down have won 4 All-Irelands in a row 1991-94? Or could Derry have done something similar? Would Tyrone have had to wait until 2003 for a first All-Ireland?

Your stats are also quite misleading. The Ulster of the early 90s was far more competitive than it is now. In Down's successful era in the 90s, 2 other Ulster teams won the All-Ireland, and Tyrone were a whisker away in 95 (By the way, as a Tyrone man, do you think Dublin 'deserved' that title? Because I think Tyrone were hard done by that day!). No other Ulster team has even reached the All-Ireland final since 2003 even with a back-door system in place!

Also on the issue of Tyrone's provinical success, put it like this, Tyrone won Ulster and the All-Ireland in 2003....they were knocked out of Ulster in 2004 (before qualifiers were introduced that was it, year over) ...they were beaten again in 2005 (again, before qualifiers, year over) but were able to come back and win the All-Ireland etc etc we all know the story up to 2010. My point is, the back door has enabled Tyrone to keep confidence levels high and maintain a bit of sharpness.

Without the back door it was all over for Tyrone in 2004 right up until 2007 and who knows if they would have been able to turn 3 short seasons into another All-Ireland triumph.

Guest Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:25 pm

Thomas Clarke wrote:I can't agree with you at all. The all-ireland champions are, ultimately, the side who deserves to win it.

Of course Down might have come back from their hammering in 1993, but maybe Derry would have beaten them in 1994 if they had met again. Maybe Dublin or Donegal would have come through and beaten them in 1991. Down won what they won.

You say that championships are easier to win now because you get a 2nd chance, but you have to remember that everyone else does also. Do you think Cork find them easier to win now, having to beat Kerry not once, like they did in 89-90, but twice? Do you think that Down would have fancied meeting Derry again in 1994? The best side wins.

And look at the stats:

Kerry: 2000-2010 5 All irelands, 7 Munsters, 3 NFLs
Tyrone 2000-2010: 3 all-irelands, 5 Ulsters, 2 NFLS
Down: 1990-2000: 2 all-irelands, 2 Ulsters, 0 NFLs
Derry: 1990 -2000: 1 all-ireland, 2 Ulsters, 4 NFLs

Stats aren't everything, but they do count. Down and Derry were very good sides, but not great in my opinion. In my opinion, they just didn't win enough to be considered great.

i think thats the point T.C, not everyone does get a 2nd chance (ie provincial champions), which is what the main discussion is about, how Armagh and Dublin have suffered because of the backdoor system.

**Thomas Clarke** Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:28 pm

bluearmy1 wrote:ThomasClarke had Meath won the All-Ireland title this year would any of us really have felt they deserved it?
Of course they didn't deserve to win the all ireland. They weren't good enough, irrespective of what happened against Louth.

You can talk about deserving to win a game on the day but in terms of All-Irelands we could say a lot of counties 'deserve' titles for the hardwork put in by players and management. We could say counties like Fermanagh and Antrim deserve titles as they put so much hard work in but just don't have the resources of other counties.
Don't know what road you are going down here. Fermanagh deserve an all ireland because they put in a lot of hard work? And what, Kerry don't?

And of course Derry might have bounced back in 94....that Derry team was exceptional and ultimately were only a shade away from defeating Down in 94. This is exactly what I'm getting at, had there been second chances who would have been the major teams? Could Down have won 4 All-Irelands in a row 1991-94? Or could Derry have done something similar? Would Tyrone have had to wait until 2003 for a first All-Ireland?
BlueArmy, your argument is full of ifs, buts and maybes. As I said before, Down might have won 4 in a row, but they might also have won none, as Dublin or Cork might have beaten them in '91, and Derry in '94.

Your stats are also quite misleading. The Ulster of the early 90s was far more competitive than it is now. In Down's successful era in the 90s, 2 other Ulster teams won the All-Ireland, and Tyrone were a whisker away in 95
More competitive, yes, but not necessarily stronger. Armagh in the last 10 years were a brilliant side, better than either the Derry or Donegal sides that you mentioned.

(By the way, as a Tyrone man, do you think Dublin 'deserved' that title? Because I think Tyrone were hard done by that day!).
Dublin deserved to win that final. Tyrone were a very average side, who played poorly on the day. We were unlucky with the last 'point that never was', but Dublin dominated most of that game. They were the best side in Ireland that year, although I've never rated them particularly highly.

My point is, the back door has enabled Tyrone to keep confidence levels high and maintain a bit of sharpness.
Sharpness, yes, but I don't see how getting beaten in Ulster boosts confidence.

Without the back door it was all over for Tyrone in 2004 right up until 2007 and who knows if they would have been able to turn 3 short seasons into another All-Ireland triumph.
Well, we will never know what would have happened, as there was a backdoor. Everyside knew about it, but only Tyrone and Kerry were able to capitalise.

You seem keen to bestow greatness on just about everyone. Cork 89-90, Down 91-94, Derry 93, Armagh, Tyrone, Kerry - what about Meath 87-88 (or 96-99), and Galway 98-01?

You are entitled to your opinion, but I don't think that every side who ever won an all-ireland was a great side (Tyrone in 2008, for instance, were not the most impressive of winners). As I said early, I do rate those sides as good teams (some of them, including Down, as excellent sides), but I just don't throw the word 'great' around as generously as you do.

**GAA-Fan** Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:33 pm

Thomas Clarke wrote:
GAA-Fan wrote:This is the problem with the backdoor and I have always thought, how can you be the best when you have been beaten.

By winning the final GF. You are thinking in the logic of 10 years ago. At the start of the year, every side knows the rules of the competition. The winners are the side who win the games that count most.

Are Spain not worthy world soccer champions, even though they lost to Switzerland in a group game?

Problem with that comparison TC is that it is a fair format. Every team in the world cup could afford to lose a game and still be in with a chance of progressing. Become provincial winners and there is no such luxury of a second chance. If there was a setup like the world cup in the provincials it would be fair. If you can't be the best in your province how can you be the best in the country?

**Thomas Clarke** Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:34 pm

samin10 wrote:
i think thats the point T.C, not everyone does get a 2nd chance (ie provincial champions), which is what the main discussion is about, how Armagh and Dublin have suffered because of the backdoor system.

I agree that it isn't a perfect system Samin, but what is the alternative? Back to a straight knockout? That is the only way to ensure that the winners never lose a game.

I mean, what about Cork last year, when the first game they lost was the final. Was that fair? You have to draw the line somewhere. As Patrique posted on here recently, look at Kilkenny. Lack of games and competition doesn't affect them. If sides are good enough, they will win their qtr finals.

Yes, point taken, that Armagh and Dublin have suffered because of the rule changes. But would things have been better if Dublin or, god forbid, Mayo have sneaked an all-ireland, when they clearly hadn't been the best in the country? I think thee back door has been a great invention, but I do admit that it isn't perfect, and scheduling, at the least, needs to be looked at.

**GAA-Fan** Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:40 pm

Straight Knockout shouldn't even be considered and is unfair on most counties.
The current format is unfair to the provincial winners.
I would be in favour of a provincial league but it wouldn't work in Munster and Connacht.

**Thomas Clarke** Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:42 pm

GAA-Fan wrote:[
Problem with that comparison TC is that it is a fair format. Every team in the world cup could afford to lose a game and still be in with a chance of progressing.

You might want to re-think that one GF. Every team in the Championship (London/NY excepted) can, like Spain, lose their 1st game and still win the all-ireland.

**GAA-Fan** Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:00 pm

Thomas Clarke wrote:
GAA-Fan wrote:[
Problem with that comparison TC is that it is a fair format. Every team in the world cup could afford to lose a game and still be in with a chance of progressing.

You might want to re-think that one GF. Every team in the Championship (London/NY excepted) can, like Spain, lose their 1st game and still win the all-ireland.

Yes at the beginning of the competition all teams do have an equal chance. But the provincial winners dont. That is still 4 teams out of the 32 who don't get that safety net.

**mullins** Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:07 pm

Thomas Clarke wrote:A lot of interesting side discussions coming up here:

Jayo - I agree that Tyrone and Kerry will be competitive next year - I'd be shocked if they both completely fall off the radar - but I wouldn't say that they will be 'the teams to beat'. In the 7 years from 1992-1998 there were 7 different winners of Sam, and I think that a similar period of unpredictability is just around the corner. Not, as Jim says, because the others have discovered self-belief, but because Kerry and Tyrone are no longer near the level they were at a few years ago, and the competition will, as a result, be wide open.

I take the point Jayo about sides always changing, and your comment about Dublin losing guys from 1974 onwards, but that is kind of my point too. Dublin in 1974 were an average side who were a maybe bit lucky to win an all-ireland. By 1976 they were an excellent side, with a completely new and dynamic half-back line, and were more comfortable with Heffo's new, fluid style of football. If I was referring to the great Dublin team of the 70s, I wouldn't be picturing the 1974 vintage, just as I wouldn't compare Tyrone today to Tyrone of 5-6 years ago.

Boxty - I thought the same about Kildare as I watched them against Meath. They have totally changed their style of play, and for the better also. They are great to watch at the moment, and I'd like to think that Tyrone might also play less defensively over the next couple of years. Perhaps the need for defensively astute players to fit into the system has encouraged Mickey to stick with the old guard over the last 12 months, but I think the time has come to introduce youth (speed) into the team, even if it means we concede a bit more than we have this year and last. We don't have an outstanding scoring threat (ala Bernard Brogan), so instead need to get more bodies up the field quicker. There are a lot of good players in Tyrone, but it will take a while for them to become top intercounty footballers.

There seems to be a lot of people who still expect Kerry and Tyrone to be back, saying that they will lose a few players, but still have plenty more top stars. But the reality is that all sides, in all sports, rely on a few leaders - when those guys are there, all is usually well, but take them out of the side, and the others don't look quite as good anymore.

Tyrone's leaders are Conor Gormley, Brian Dooher, Ryan McMenamin and possibly Philly Jordan. The likelihood of some or most of these not being on the first 15 next year is a big part of the reason why I would not be hugely optimistic for Tyrone's prospects in 2011.

1974: P. Cullen, G. O’Driscoll, S. Doherty, R. Kelleher, P. Reilly, A. Larkin, G. Wilson, S. Rooney, B. Mullins, B. Doyle, T. Hanahoe, D. Hickey, J. McCarthy, J. Keaveney, A. O’Toole

1976: P. Cullen, G. O’Driscoll, S. Doherty, R. Kelleher, T. Drumm, K. Moran, P. O’Neill, B. Mullins, B. Brogan, A. O’Toole, T. Hanahoe, D. Hickey, B. Doyle, J. Keaveney, J. McCarthy. Subs: F. Ryder, P. Gogarty

1977: P. Cullen, G. O’Driscoll, S. Doherty, R. Kelleher, T. Drumm, K. Moran, P. O’Neill, B. Mullins, B. Brogan, A. O’Toole, T. Hanahoe, D. Hickey, B. Doyle, J. Keaveney, J. McCarthy. Subs: A. Larkin, P. Reilly, J. Brogan

Average team Tc ..We only lost 2 players wilson -rooney from the 74 team till 77....Yet the 74 team was average..Only the half back line changed from 74..

**Thomas Clarke** Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:17 pm

Average indeed Mullins.

Dublin's half-back line was ripped apart by Kerry in 1975, and Heffernan completely changed it for the next year. The 76-77 half-back line was one of the best ever seen.

Also midfield, Brian Mullins was only 19 in 1974, but had matured by 76-77. Brogan was also a huge improvement, with his mobility crucial in Heffernan's system of play.

And then there was the style of football played. Hanahoe pulling to the side, Keaveney dropping into the hole, and Mullins/Brogan charging through the middle. Dublin didn't play like that in 1974. They just hadn't perfected that style of play then. They didn't have the players to play it.

You should try looking at things objectively Mullins, rather than just a blanket 'Dublin = good; Tyrone = bad'.

**mullins** Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:23 pm

Thomas Clarke wrote:Average indeed Mullins.

Dublin's half-back line was ripped apart by Kerry in 1975, and Heffernan completely changed it for the next year. The 76-77 half-back line was one of the best ever seen.

Also midfield, Brian Mullins was only 19 in 1974, but had matured by 76-77. Brogan was also a huge improvement, with his mobility crucial in Heffernan's system of play.

And then there was the style of football played. Hanahoe pulling to the side, Keaveney dropping into the hole, and Mullins/Brogan charging through the middle. Dublin didn't play like that in 1974. They just hadn't perfected that style of play then. They didn't have the players to play it.

You should try looking at things objectively Mullins, rather than just a blanket 'Dublin = good; Tyrone = bad'.

I never said Tyrone bad did i A farewell to Kerry & Tyrone... - Page 2 Icon_question

**bluearmy1** Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:26 pm

From 91-95 Ulster showcased the talents of players like Joe Brolly, Martin McHugh, Anthony Tohill, Mickey Linden, James McCartan, Greg Blaney, Peter Canavan.....Ulster has never seen anything like that number of great players in such a variety of counties before in such a short space of time. Yes, Ulster had good representation in the latter stages of the Championship this decade but this was because a back door system was in place.

A longer season promotes confidence. Down were knocked out of Ulster this year by Tyrone. They were able to get a run in the qualifiers and now people are billing them to win an All-Ireland and even begin another era of Down success. This will give Down confidence whereas had their season ended that day against Tyrone a lot of the players would have been questioning their ability,and their participation. It would not have been a good way to go into the next season.

My argument is full of ifs, buts, and maybes because the point your trying to make invites them. It's because saying Tyrone and Kerry are the leading teams of the past 25 years inevitably leads to the point that the Qualifiers have made the Championship into a totally different beast and that Tyrone and Kerry have benefited from having an opportunity that teams before the system came in didn't have. Others have arguably suffered from the system. The qualifiers have totally changed the Championship and comparisons between the teams of today and the teams of the past are now limited.

Yes, all teams know they have a second chance in the Qualifiers. Success comes and goes, Down had their time, Dublin had their time, Galway had their time, and Tyrone had their time......every county wavers between success and failure and only Kerry seem able to maintain it despite a blip in the late 80s-90s. Tyrone finally got a great side together but they had the added luxury of the qualifiers. Ifs buts and maybes are everything if you are going to call a Down team that won two All-Irelands in Ulster's golden era a very good side back in the days when one bad day meant it was all over and a Tyrone team great that could have one bad day but learn from it.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Tyrone's success, but let's just say the Down man in me tells me to get defensive when a team involving Mickey Linden, James McCartan, Greg Blaney, Ross Carr, DJ Kane, Conor Deegan, Barry Breen, Gregory McCartan is merely called very good.

**mullins** Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:35 pm

bluearmy1 wrote:From 91-95 Ulster showcased the talents of players like Joe Brolly, Martin McHugh, Anthony Tohill, Mickey Linden, James McCartan, Greg Blaney, Peter Canavan.....Ulster has never seen anything like that number of great players in such a variety of counties before in such a short space of time. Yes, Ulster had good representation in the latter stages of the Championship this decade but this was because a back door system was in place.

A longer season promotes confidence. Down were knocked out of Ulster this year by Tyrone. They were able to get a run in the qualifiers and now people are billing them to win an All-Ireland and even begin another era of Down success. This will give Down confidence whereas had their season ended that day against Tyrone a lot of the players would have been questioning their ability,and their participation. It would not have been a good way to go into the next season.

My argument is full of ifs, buts, and maybes because the point your trying to make invites them. It's because saying Tyrone and Kerry are the leading teams of the past 25 years inevitably leads to the point that the Qualifiers have made the Championship into a totally different beast and that Tyrone and Kerry have benefited from having an opportunity that teams before the system came in didn't have. Others have arguably suffered from the system. The qualifiers have totally changed the Championship and comparisons between the teams of today and the teams of the past are now limited.

Yes, all teams know they have a second chance in the Qualifiers. Success comes and goes, Down had their time, Dublin had their time, Galway had their time, and Tyrone had their time......every county wavers between success and failure and only Kerry seem able to maintain it despite a blip in the late 80s-90s. Tyrone finally got a great side together but they had the added luxury of the qualifiers. Ifs buts and maybes are everything if you are going to call a Down team that won two All-Irelands in Ulster's golden era a very good side back in the days when one bad day meant it was all over and a Tyrone team great that could have one bad day but learn from it.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Tyrone's success, but let's just say the Down man in me tells me to get defensive when a team involving Mickey Linden, James McCartan, Greg Blaney, Ross Carr, DJ Kane, Conor Deegan, Barry Breen, Gregory McCartan is merely called very good.

blue army that down team of the 90s were as good a team as i have seen in croke pk..I know we might have reeled you back in 94, if charlie had scored that penalty- but linden and mccartan destroyed dublin in the first 1/4 and gave you enough breeding space to see the game out..Tc as rubbished the Dublin team of the 90s already so i wouldn't worry to much about what he thinks of Down..Revenge for 94 coming to a screen near you soon.. A farewell to Kerry & Tyrone... - Page 2 Icon_razz

**Thomas Clarke** Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:35 pm

In fairness, Blue Army, I called them a good side in 1991, and an excellent side in 1994. Linden was a totally different footballer in '94, as was Gary Mason, while Gregory McCartan, Magill and Paul Higgins were all good additions. Aidan Farrell never had the menace that Withnell possessed at FF, but overall the 1994 side was much stronger.

They were excellent then. I just wouldn't call them great.

Still, each to their own though.

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