A farewell to Kerry & Tyrone...

Quality stuff TC. A very enjoyable read.

as good read but a bit premature I think.
Personally do not believe either county will make "wholesale" changes and that both will be there or there about's next year.
We had a year of freak results, Monaghan mauling Armagh, Meath blitzing Dublin, Sligo defeating both connaught "superpowers" and some others as well.
This is what happens in sport and what makes it so good it's not predictable.
Your comment regarding styles while appropriate and highlighting some form of evolution showed that the team of the decade won using the tried and tested method of kicking (long ball into a full forward line) the ball, no swarming, blanket defense, handballing the ball the length of the field etc.
Other methods have been looked at examined and analysed to death to see if they can be combated.
At least this decade has taught us one thing forget about the opposition and concentrate on your own, then you stand a chance of success (Please do not throw up the Dublin style of play, it is unique to them it may be "loosely based" on Tyrone but I think that is more out of what players are available that a tried system).
So a question has to be asked have these teams adjusted to the new rules better than those gone out.
How many disallowed goals(rather than allowed!!) have there been in the championship this year
I think that is why we have some long lost counties back in the last 4 (Cork been the exception), they believe in themselves and what they have going for them rather than copy someone else, i.e they learnt to adjust.
one one other point of note no player has a senior winners Celtic cross there are players with some from other grades.

Nice piece TC but hardly a time for a eulogy and well you know it!

It's a fair point Omar, but the one thing that can be predicted, is that nothing stays the same forever.

Tyrone and Kerry will be competitive for the foreseeable future, but those 2 great sides, as we knew them, are finished. Perhaps some of the old faces will win all-irelands again, but it will be with new team-mates, and in different fashion.

That Tyrone side, with Dooher, Gormley, Ricey, O'Neill etc will never get back to the level that they were in, say, 2005, and nor will Kerry with the O'Se's, McCarthy, Tom Sullivan get back to where they were in 2006/7.

If we are talking about 'sides', as opposed to counties, then those 2 sides will never again reach the levels that they previously did. I'm convinced that it is the end of the road for them both as the outright, dominant forces in gaelic football.

I feel Tyrone will be around as a contender in some shape or form for the next few years. Granted the personnel will change but the county has a good record of underage success and there is huge interest and support in the county.

Personally I feel it's the end of an era regarding Kerry. For a long time now they've been living on tradition and titles to generate interest whilst neglecting the fact that every other county has upped the ante in terms of training, youth development anf infrastructure. Kerry, for such a successful county is seeing precious few underage titles. Kerry must have the poorest travelling supporters in Ireland, whilst poor enough in Killarney too. They've been living on reputation, tradition and history, that's not enough in the modern game...thank God it's coming to an end.

abm wrote:I feel Tyrone will be around as a contender in some shape or form for the next few years. Granted the personnel will change but the county has a good record of underage success and there is huge interest and support in the county.

Personally I feel it's the end of an era regarding Kerry. For a long time now they've been living on tradition and titles to generate interest whilst neglecting the fact that every other county has upped the ante in terms of training, youth development anf infrastructure. Kerry, for such a successful county is seeing precious few underage titles. Kerry must have the poorest travelling supporters in Ireland, whilst poor enough in Killarney too. They've been living on reputation, tradition and history, that's not enough in the modern game...thank God it's coming to an end.

Sorry GAA is all about tradition, and for that reason and that reason only the kingdom will always be he kingdom.
The might be as dominant but I don't think they will go 11 years again without a senior title

Thomas Clarke wrote:It's a fair point Omar, but the one thing that can be predicted, is that nothing stays the same forever.

Tyrone and Kerry will be competitive for the foreseeable future, but those 2 great sides, as we knew them, are finished. Perhaps some of the old faces will win all-irelands again, but it will be with new team-mates, and in different fashion.

That Tyrone side, with Dooher, Gormley, Ricey, O'Neill etc will never get back to the level that they were in, say, 2005, and nor will Kerry with the O'Se's, McCarthy, Tom Sullivan get back to where they were in 2006/7.

If we are talking about 'sides', as opposed to counties, then those 2 sides will never again reach the levels that they previously did. I'm convinced that it is the end of the road for them both as the outright, dominant forces in gaelic football.

Agreed.


And an excellent first post as well, well argued.

A smashing post TC, well articulated and presented.
Nothing much to argue with in it, except to pick up on one or two points added afterwards.

1. Kerry will always be Kerry. Despite a perceived lack of under-age success, there is little enough to indicate that we won't see them again (albeit with radically changed personnel) sooner rather than later. Forget the rebuttals about tradition, it's that very tradition that keeps them coming back year on year. They would always hold themselves in high regard..

2. I note, that of late, the world's greatest users of the handpass (Donegal excepted),Kildare, have reverted to more of the foot-pass style than heretofore. This has gotten them this far and indeed may get them all the way yet. It moves the ball quicker, leaves less time for this unsightly re-grouping and is much more appealing to the eye. Now Tyrone have had great success at under-age and surely in the short term some of these minors will make the step up. Will Tyrone look to "more long ball in faster" methods, thus turning the game on it's head again?

A worthy eulogy to two fine teams, but we'll be seeing both again around this time of year in the not too distant future...

Kerry were probably the best team of the decade but I always gave the mythical title "team of the Decade" to Tyrone simply because of the impact.

Just as in hurling Wexford were the team of the 50s and Limerick in the 30s, although other counties won nmore.

But those teams brought something new to the table.

And yes, I remember Wexford with more fondness than Tyrone but........

Great post/thread TC.

As an aside, just for those out there that always bring up this argument that Kerry have been poor underage recently - when have we not been?! Fair enough we've won it more than any other county, but we've only won it 11 times, the last of these in 1994! The lack of underage success in Kerry does not correlate to our Senior team.

Great post TC. And a few observations .....

I think its worth pointing out that Kerry had an unbelievable drought from 86 to 97 - unlikely to happen again. Some of this 'Kerry era' brought the county back to the top table and it was built on to give a memorable noughties for the county. While I think Tyrone still have much to give Down won 3 Sams in the 60s and largely disappeared until the 90s - so you never know.

But I certainly would not be writing off either county at all. Yes some of the incumbents may win Celtic crosses in the future with different team mates but thats the nature of sport. In the Dublin 70s team there were a few lads who won in 74 but were nowhere to be seen in 77.

As I have posted elsewhere on this site, there appears to be no lack of underage success in Tyrone which MH should be able to tap - if he is of the mind to - but conversely as Triona points out Kerry have been lacking in underage for years yet it doesn't show at senior! Laois and Westmeath - Cork, Derry nor Armagh seem to have been able to translate it to Sam.

Last weekend saved the football championship I think. It would be nice for every county to dream and maybe now they can - Dream, suckers! - but work damn hard!!! I don't think Tyrone will dwell in melancholy - a few hard facts are staring them in the face - nothing broke that can't be fixed quickly. Similarly its easy to forget that Kerry were denied O'Sé and Galvin by the CCCC and others by the Aussies. If they were all back you are looking at a different animal.

To summarise TC - good try ... but Tyrone and Kerry are still the teams to beat next Summer!! And you know it, as do we ....

I would be very surprised if Tyrone are a threat next year. They shocked everyone in 2008, 09 and 10 got beat against the first half decent team.

I think they need new blood, but can new blood fit into a system or will the newbies be too independent?

Very hard to tell.

Kerry? Well we know they will be back.

Farewell to Bellaghy, likewise Tamlaghtduff,
And the green hills of Derry that I dearly love,

A lot of interesting side discussions coming up here:

Jayo - I agree that Tyrone and Kerry will be competitive next year - I'd be shocked if they both completely fall off the radar - but I wouldn't say that they will be 'the teams to beat'. In the 7 years from 1992-1998 there were 7 different winners of Sam, and I think that a similar period of unpredictability is just around the corner. Not, as Jim says, because the others have discovered self-belief, but because Kerry and Tyrone are no longer near the level they were at a few years ago, and the competition will, as a result, be wide open.

I take the point Jayo about sides always changing, and your comment about Dublin losing guys from 1974 onwards, but that is kind of my point too. Dublin in 1974 were an average side who were a maybe bit lucky to win an all-ireland. By 1976 they were an excellent side, with a completely new and dynamic half-back line, and were more comfortable with Heffo's new, fluid style of football. If I was referring to the great Dublin team of the 70s, I wouldn't be picturing the 1974 vintage, just as I wouldn't compare Tyrone today to Tyrone of 5-6 years ago.

Boxty - I thought the same about Kildare as I watched them against Meath. They have totally changed their style of play, and for the better also. They are great to watch at the moment, and I'd like to think that Tyrone might also play less defensively over the next couple of years. Perhaps the need for defensively astute players to fit into the system has encouraged Mickey to stick with the old guard over the last 12 months, but I think the time has come to introduce youth (speed) into the team, even if it means we concede a bit more than we have this year and last. We don't have an outstanding scoring threat (ala Bernard Brogan), so instead need to get more bodies up the field quicker. There are a lot of good players in Tyrone, but it will take a while for them to become top intercounty footballers.


There seems to be a lot of people who still expect Kerry and Tyrone to be back, saying that they will lose a few players, but still have plenty more top stars. But the reality is that all sides, in all sports, rely on a few leaders - when those guys are there, all is usually well, but take them out of the side, and the others don't look quite as good anymore.

Tyrone's leaders are Conor Gormley, Brian Dooher, Ryan McMenamin and possibly Philly Jordan. The likelihood of some or most of these not being on the first 15 next year is a big part of the reason why I would not be hugely optimistic for Tyrone's prospects in 2011.

Jayo makes a point about the Kerry wilderness years in late eighties and early nineties
I agree that this is unlikley to be repeated - Cork and Meath were the top two counties from
87-90, what we don't know is if Kerry where the third best and you could only measure this in the modern game where the back door allow for the "second Best" county in a province to have a chance of ermeging from beneath their "provincial masters"l. This year excluded the modern structure also removes the possibility for shock teams to come through to the Semi Final stage - Never again will we see a Semi final line up that includes Clare,Donegal and Mayo like we did in 1992, surely Meath and Kerry would have emerged via the back door.

The new structure also allows for counties to keep their shape in a "bad year" historically a county may have been blooding new players in a transition phase but suffered from say an early but close provinical exit - Then you had players taking the "New York and Boston Dollar" which stopped the rebuild phase in its tracks
Donegal by way of example - Lost a tight AI semi in 1990, lost an Ulster final in 1991 and then won in 1992 - they lost the league in 93 after a replay and had a strong run to the 93 Ulster final with a few new faces blended in to the team. They lose the 1993 Ulster Final in what were probably the worst weather and pitch conditions ever seen by a point. DErry go on to win Sam - and Donegal head for the hills with the brightest star John Duffy heading to Chicago and don't emerge as a provincial threat for another 5 years. Under the current structure if that team had bounced back in 93 and retained enough momentum who knows.
They should also have won the 91 minor All Ireland - and the core of this team should have been the basis for transition - Incredibly only Damien Diver from that team ever played regular senior football.


In summary there the new system will not let a Kerry fall into the doldrums as easy - the same should protect Tyrone but if like Armagh they are two slow to change faces well then that becomes a different issue. Brian Cody never had trouble dropping CHA or Carter or a litanny of Former all stars over the years and the cats should be the benchmark

Great post, Yes its great to see other counties getting a crack at the title. Hopefully it will be Derrys turn next year

great read T.C but i certainly feel it is a bit early to write either team off. But then if you (think it was you anyway) said Armagh were not a top 8 team because we were narrowly beaten by dublin although we were understrength, then i am not suprised you are writing off tyrone. Also i have to say i disagree that tyrone were light years ahead of everyone in 2003, i think they played 8 or 9 games that year, all but one against Ulster oposition. Whilst an all-ireland is never to be sniffed at i always felt that the 05 side especially were much better than 03 when Down drew with (and should have beaten)Tyrone. I think Tyrone were better than us in 03 final but to suggest 6 or 7 points better is ridiculous considering that at least 3 of Tyrones points in the first half came directly from dives (i challenge you to watch the dvd and claim they were not) (one in particular was Phillip jordan running past paddy mckeever and just threw himself to the ground, it was unbelievable), not to mention the sending off. All irrelevant now but i really hated tyrone from about 5 hours after that match (after seeing the game on tv) untill the semi final in 05 when Tyrone came out on top of a classis semi final game, after which i had a new found respect for Tyrone and have supported them anytime they played since (with an odd exception). Also, who would have thought in 04 when both Armagh and Tyrone went out to Fermanagh and Mayo that they would be the teams to beat the following year? I have to say though Tyrone at the moment remind me of Armagh around 2004, basically they are getting on a bit. They have a few players breaking through but they have about 2 years left to win another all-ireland before a major rebuilding phase. We came close with an ageing side, Tyrone can still do it. Kerry will always be able to do it.

Passionate post but a bit heavy on the hyperbole. There have been other great teams up there with Tyrone and Kerry if we're talking about the past 25 years. The Cork back to back team 89-90? Down team of the early 90s who were at the height of their powers just when Ulster was at the strongest standard it has ever reached? An Armagh team who probably should have won several All-Irelands but became probably the worst victims of the qualifier system?

Tyrone were by no means the first team to develop the pressure tactics that you have mentioned. Watch clips of James McCartan or Mickey Linden hassling defenders, winning back the ball, keeping pressure on for the full game (I'm sure there's a lot of other forwards I could mention but I'll be a wee bit biased here). These tactics crept slowly into the game as fitness and conditioning became more and more essential. The teams of this decade are certainly the most conditioned players our games have ever seen and the next decade, regardless of who the dominant teams are, will be the same case. And Tyrone were certainly not the creators of the blanket defence....Armagh had been implementing it under the guidance of Brian Canavan.

Tyrone weren't exactly the most popular champions ever and will probably never get the credit they deserve in the southern media which may unfairly tarnish their memory. I don't hide my opinion....I haven't been the biggest fan of Tyrone football over the past few years....I suppose its in my DNA as a Down man to have a higher regard for attacking football and a good old fashioned shootout. But if this Tyrone team are to be remembered for anything let it be said that their tactical awareness, among both players and management, was awesome. They played to their strengths and such was their intelligence that few teams were able to impose their own game style on the Red Hands. Let it also be remembered that this tactical power was coupled with supreme athletic ability and inspiring workrate.

As for Kerry....well theres not much that has to be said....team of the decade for sure.

Don't be going taking that too serioulsy fellas ;-)

Three points from dives in 2003 you say Samin? The old memory does for me, I would swear Brian McGuigan had at least 5 dives, all identical, and frees were landed from them.

Perhaps my disregard for Brian springs from there.

Football teams did have forwards who harassed the backs trying to clear, and Pat Spillane for one used to be back collecting short kick outs. His decisive goal in 1986 I think he first gets the ball on his own 21.

However Tyrone were the first team to have EVERYONE interchangeable, tackling back, harassing defenders trying to clear, and all the rest.

Other teams only pretend to be doing it.

patrique wrote:Three points from dives in 2003 you say Samin? The old memory does for me, I would swear Brian McGuigan had at least 5 dives, all identical, and frees were landed from them.

Perhaps my disregard for Brian springs from there.

there was a lot, there was a few that really came to mind. Only ever watched it once or twice on dvd. I thought if i didnt watch it again the rage would dissapear through time. 7 years later it hasnt worked

bluearmy1 wrote:An Armagh team who probably should have won several All-Irelands but became probably the worst victims of the qualifier system?

bluearmy1 - that is a very valid point and not something I had thought of before. Just when the backdoor came in they were gathering Ulsters and were getting done later - resulting in only one Sam. Between Armagh and the Dubs - they must curse the qualifier system!

As I have said before, Mickey Harte is entitled to broach the subject but as a long suffering Dub* with 5 in a row Leinsters - and laughed at when we broached the same subject - it's a bit rich in 2010. Armagh might feel the same.

* 5 Leinsters - 2 semis and not one final appearance!

Perhaps the only difference between Armagh and Dublin was the fact that Ulster was, just when Armagh peaked, the toughest provincial championship to come through while Leinster football dipped which maybe gave Dublin a false sense of where they were at, resulting in poor results in the All-Ireland stages. Armagh on the other hand, well, 3 Ulster titles in a row was an incredible achievement especially when you consider that the last team to do so consisted of players like Kevin Mussen and Paddy Doherty. But they always seemed to fall to a plucky Qualifier team (will they ever forget Fermanagh?).

And yes I do think that Mickey Harte should make it clear that Tyrone flourished under the current system if he is going to make calls for change.

As for the main point of this thread....are Tyrone finished? Who knows....they've been wrote off before unfairly. As for Kerry....36 All-Irelands say they never die.