Armagh vs Monaghan 6/6/10

GAA-Fan wrote:Monaghan will win Ulster easily.

What is this assumption based on?

Congratulations to you MMM and Monaghan fans, the team really were deserving of the win and Monaghan look to be in great shape.

This is the problem I am having at the moment. When you get hammered like that in a game there is equal fault, but on the otherhand it did not look like O'Rouke was doing anything at all, it was the same against Down in the NFL he just never made any tactical changes it's so very frustrating. I can't see how pretty much the same teams not even a year ago were pretty much equal, to one of them severely dropping in form. Is it because of Grimley? Is it O'Rouke's fault? Were the players havng a bad day. It is when Armagh are a man down they give up, they flatline and there dosent seem to be any motivation whatsoever to push on.

I know that it isnt the same team as a few years ago but in them days Armagh would go on and still beat teams. Its a lack of motivation, motivating players is not only their own job but that of the backroom staff.

Im off to hit my head off a brick wall, might be on later.

Thomas Clarke wrote:

GAA-Fan wrote:Monaghan will win Ulster easily.

What is this assumption based on?

Tyrone were not overly impressive against Antrim. Monaghan so far are looking the businness. Down don't seem to be at the same level as they were in the NFL and should have been beaten by a wasteful Donegal. Could be right, could be wrong - its just the way I see it.

However, I am being unfair to Cavan and Fermanagh.

GF. be it in an Ulster final or in the qualifiers, Tyrone will be a lot better in mid July than they were in mid-May. I think that you are reading far too much in each team's last performance, instead of assessing potential for improvement.

Thomas Clarke wrote:GF. be it in an Ulster final or in the qualifiers, Tyrone will be a lot better in mid July than they were in mid-May. I think that you are reading far too much in each team's last performance, instead of assessing potential for improvement.

No doubt about it TC, which is why I think Monaghan will win Ulster. Tyrone won't peak in Ulster, but they might have to when coming up against Down. I am not looking forward to the qualifiers, and I dont think any Tyrone fans will either.

I think Tyrone will beat Down and reach the Ulster final, and that will be an awful tough proposition for whoever they meet. People really shouldn't be writing Tyrone off, that in the past has has come back to haunt them. Clearly Ulster isn't the main target for Tyrone and is what every other team remaining in Ulster is aiming for, but that doesn't mean Tyrone won't go out to win it and they're still the best team in Ulster. Comparing our performance today against Armagh where we really had to win, and Tyrone's performance against Antrim doesn't make sense, far different situations for both teams.

After 15 minutes of this completely one sided game I got bored.

Armagh will face tougher opposition in the semi as Monaghan were terrible.

How many did Armagh eventually win by, about 15?

patrique wrote:After 15 minutes of this completely one sided game I got bored.

Armagh will face tougher opposition in the semi as Monaghan were terrible.

How many did Armagh eventually win by, about 15?

brilliant Pat!

Thomas Clarke wrote:

GAA-Fan wrote:

Thomas Clarke wrote:

GAA-Fan wrote: How is that man a referee, he done exactly the same against Armagh vs Down in the first match...if anything he should not be allowed to referee ever again.

Yes, the although the biggest mistake that he made was not sending-off Aaron Kernan.

Stopped watching in ten minutes ago. What happened? That shoulder earlier? If it was that hardly a red card.

Ah GF, take off the orange-tinted glasses. Kernan's was a very late and dirty hit and he should definitely have walked. Mallon also deserved to go.

there was one or two incidents where monaghan players carried out late and dirty tackles, why not mention those? There was one in particular in the second half that totally took an Armagh player out of it. I am not making excuses, Monaghan took great advantage of the extra man and kicked some wonderfull points but GF is right the referee is and was yet again a joke yesterday. Twice tommy freeman pushed andy allon in the back when he was jumping for a ball (not blaming tommy, it was clever and cute play, the reality is though that a good referee would have picked up on it) twice Armagh defenders went to pick the ball up and were pushed in the back,they fell when picking the ball up and then were blown up for charging (ridiculous). , Brendan Donaghey was blown up for picking the ball of the ground (clearly a wrong discision). Vincent Mattin made a great catch landed on his back and was then pushed in the face when trying to get up, free given to monaghan for charging. Personally i thought the sending off was harsh, and i would say that if the shoe was on the other foot. Mallonwent in to hit him hard with the shoulder, it was unfortunate the way they collided, it certainly was not a kennelly incident. there was at least 5 or 6 ridiculous descisions that went against armagh that resulted directly in points for Monaghan.

Anyone who says Armagh are not amongst the top 7 or 8 teams because of this have not a clue what they are talking about. I remember reading the same sort of crap after the first down game this year (when Armagh had a man sent off by the same referee for feck all, ended up getting hammered), won easily when playing 15 against 15. Armagh were well in the game when they had mallon sent off, i would fancy our chances against Monaghan 15 a side and with a fit Ronan Clarke.

On GF's points, i would have to agree that the Armagh management would need to smarten up on how to play with 14 men, twice we have went to 14 against 15 this year and got hammered. Lots of things were going right for Armagh yesterday untill the sending off but we could well have still been beaten, but one thing is for sure it would not have been in the manner we were.

Another thing Armagh would need to learn is how to deal with Paul Finlay, i dont know how many times he has to win MOM awards against us before we realise we need a proper plan to deal with him.

Im not sure about the red card, but havent watched it again yet. Although in the analysis on RTE they were saying it was not a straight red.

Im still fuming at how poor the team played. Hopefully they will make amends in the qualifiers. Ronan Clarke will be back, Jamie Clarke shouldn't have started yesterday but also heard that Henderson was ill.

samin10 wrote:
there was one or two incidents where monaghan players carried out late and dirty tackles, why not mention those? There was one in particular in the second half that totally took an Armagh player out of it. I am not making excuses, Monaghan took great advantage of the extra man and kicked some wonderfull points but GF is right the referee is and was yet again a joke yesterday. Twice tommy freeman pushed andy allon in the back when he was jumping for a ball (not blaming tommy, it was clever and cute play, the reality is though that a good referee would have picked up on it) twice Armagh defenders went to pick the ball up and were pushed in the back,they fell when picking the ball up and then were blown up for charging (ridiculous). , Brendan Donaghey was blown up for picking the ball of the ground (clearly a wrong discision). Vincent Mattin made a great catch landed on his back and was then pushed in the face when trying to get up, free given to monaghan for charging. Personally i thought the sending off was harsh, and i would say that if the shoe was on the other foot. Mallonwent in to hit him hard with the shoulder, it was unfortunate the way they collided, it certainly was not a kennelly incident. there was at least 5 or 6 ridiculous descisions that went against armagh that resulted directly in points for Monaghan.

Anyone who says Armagh are not amongst the top 7 or 8 teams because of this have not a clue what they are talking about. I remember reading the same sort of crap after the first down game this year (when Armagh had a man sent off by the same referee for feck all, ended up getting hammered), won easily when playing 15 against 15. Armagh were well in the game when they had mallon sent off, i would fancy our chances against Monaghan 15 a side and with a fit Ronan Clarke.

On GF's points, i would have to agree that the Armagh management would need to smarten up on how to play with 14 men, twice we have went to 14 against 15 this year and got hammered. Lots of things were going right for Armagh yesterday untill the sending off but we could well have still been beaten, but one thing is for sure it would not have been in the manner we were.

Another thing Armagh would need to learn is how to deal with Paul Finlay, i dont know how many times he has to win MOM awards against us before we realise we need a proper plan to deal with him.

Ok, a few quick answers Samin, as I'm sure that post was aimed at me.

1) I didn't mention the Monaghan hits as GF was making out that the refereee was biased in favour of Armagh. I was pointing out that the 2 dirtiest hits were by Mallon & Kernan. I thought Mallon's was a red - some of the pundits agreed, some didn't - but, whether he meant it or not, it was high and there was an elbow up.

2) I'm not sure Freeman pushed Mallon twice. I can think of one incident in the 2nd half where I thought he had at first look, but the reverse angle behind the goals proved he hadn't. He had just nudged him with his hips. On Mallon, he was struggling against Eoin Bradley also, and doesn't look the player he did a few years ago.

3) You said that Armagh would win with 15 players and Ronan Clarke and, in saying that, have identified Armagh's 2 biggest weakenesses. Firstly, they don't have enough good forwards, and can't be without Clarke or McDonnell. Secondly, Armagh are set up not to lose. They are set up to win games by a point or 2 by keeping the score down by playing extra defenders. When they go a man behind they can't win, because they can't keep the score down.

4) You say that anyone who says that Armagh aren't in the Top 7-8 sides doesn't have a clue - well I don't think many people would rate them in the top 7-8 sides after yesterday. Maybe all of those people don't have a clue. Armagh are in a bunch of sides that are much of a muchness - Donegal, Sligo, Derry, Down, Mayo, Limerick - decent, but not contenders.

Im not sure if Armagh would have won regardless, but thats a matter of opinion. However one thing I will say is that this is a new team too reliant on McDonnell. It wasnt Banty's tatical mind that made the diffrence yesterday, it was Grimley, a man who knows about Armagh football inside out.

After the settling down a little I do think Armagh are well equipped for anyone they play against in the qualifiers as long as it isnt Cork or Kerry and we dont get that piss poor referee again, and keep 15 men on the pitch. Dont think anyone will be crying over Armagh not winning another Ulster, it would have been nice but to be fair it isnt top priority. A decent run in the All Ireland is.

You will keep 15 men on the pitch if they don't go charging elbow high into an opponents head. Can't understand the quibble with this decision. Maybe some refs might have given yellow but there can be no gripe about the red. Can't see Armagh having any impact this year as I don't rate them highly at all and the heavy defeat won't have helped confidence. A lot of the new guys are unproven at C'ship level and were missing yesterday. Its one thing to star against Laois or Tipp in February or March - another thing altogether to do it in the white heat of the Ulster c'ship.

Jayo Cluxton wrote:You will keep 15 men on the pitch if they don't go charging elbow high into an opponents head.

Yet again a matter of opinion. Been on other boards and even Monaghan fans have said that it wasnt worthy of a red. It was a fair but mistimed challenege. There were much worse tackles in the game that were malicious from both Monaghan and Armagh players. The referee was a card nazi, just look at how many yellows Monaghan got in the first half that were not yellow card offences.

GAA-Fan wrote:Been on other boards and even Monaghan fans have said that it wasnt worthy of a red. It was a fair but mistimed challenege

Sorry complete BS - his elbows were high. Agree about the cards - some ridiculous yellows dished out.

Samin with due respect that was a piss poor Armagh team yesterday for all but 10-15 minutes of the game. There was no fight in them once they went behind and the elementary mistakes they were making were almost embarrassing. The ref was bad in patches but i think it unfair to blame him for the defeat. The game was there for the taking at the start of the second half and yet two quick turnovers in succession which led to two points ended the match as a contest. Armagh panicked at that stage and even though they had over 30 minutes still to play they were trying to walk through for goals - at least 4 attacks which should have generated four points ended up producing nothing - those scores would have put Armagh right back in it.

O Rourke looked clueless on the sideline but it was a lost cause so perhaps he cant take all the blame though i do question the ability of his teams to respond when they go behind. Freeman did nothing that any other forward wouldnt do and they certainly were not pushes in my view. The sending off was harsh i thought, to me the elbow only raised after the collision but i can understand a ref with only a split second and no luxury of a replay making the call he did, i dont think Mallon is that sort of player.

As for Armagh being in the top 8 teams well i am sorry Samin but your kidding yourself i honestly think their season is over as they wont have the stomach for the battle require din the qualifiers.

There is little doubt Grimley was the mastermind yesterday and in a way he has actually belittled Bantys credentials as a manager - had Grimley not been on the sideline yesterday i doubt that Monaghan would have won. Another point which no one has picked up on was the fact that at one stage yesterday when the game was already over as a contest Clerkin and Banty looked like they were going to square up to each other on the sideline, Clerkin could clearly be seen shouting expletives in Bantys direction and Grimley shoved Banty out of the road to avoid a confrontation, that would worry me as a Monaghan supporter.

And i think it is unrealistic for anyone to say Monaghan are dead certs for the Ulster title this year - Monaghan are well capable of going out in the next game and doing an Armagh and capitulating in dramatic fashion!!!!

On the Tommy Freeman point, I wouldn't say those were pushes at all, more good examples of corner-forward play. As the ball was dropping in he used his hips to turn into Mallon and gather the ball at the same time, turning away to take his score. May be a foul by the letter of the law but I think it's a great skill for corner-forwards, Jarlath Burns said the same on BBC.

On the red card, it may have been a bit harsh as I know Brian Mallon isn't that type of player and there was no malice in it, it was just unfortunate timing. Woods was given a hospital pass, Mallon lined him up for a shoulder but Woods turned into him, causing Mallon not to hit him side on but in a wee bit, and his momentum brought his arm up which looked bad. Whether his arm connected much or at all is hard to see but Woods nose being bust didn't look good for Mallon. Seeing it in real time, I can see why a red was produced but it was unlucky for Mallon.

The ref as a joke however over the course of the game, some of the yellows he produced were ridculous and I'm still struggling to think why they were shown, i.e. McManus, McDonnell etc. Don't think there were many, if any, dirty strokes at all in the game. The only Monaghan one I can think of was Kieran Hughes on Kernan. Not dirty I wouldn't say, it was a bodycheck alright and a definate yellow but it's not like he clotheslined him. The other one which comes to mind was Kernan on Woods, where he seemed to the elbow in a wee bit, however I haven't seen this again so can't comment in hindsight.

I am seriously doubting Paddy O'Roukes ability to manage this team. He just wasnt motivating the team in any aspect of the game, what makes things look bad from an Armagh perspective is once again there was no plan B and no answer for when we lose a man. Its not the defeat itself its that touches a nerve it is the manner in which the manager and players took it, they gave up apart from one or two. Compare Grimley to O'Rouke. Grimley was up and down the sideline giving players instructions constantly giving them information on how to attack and defend against Armagh. O'Rouke didnt! Banty didn't do the same for Monaghan!

I would say that 30% of the blame was on the Armagh players. What else are they suppose to do when the manager is essentially voiceless theyre plan was well and truly obliterated before their very eyes and that why they panicked.

Who cares if Armagh are in the top 10 or whatever. It means **** all for the next game. They have to go out and show their worth and so far they havent done this. On ability they are a top 10 team [ as with most], on performances they are far from it.

No offence intended on Monaghan here, but Fermanagh could have looked like Ulster contenders if they played the same Armagh team that showed up yesterday. However Grimley is a well prepared man and Monaghan have a fine team as well as an experienced team which is why I think they will win Ulster.

Yeah, O'Rourke was far too slow to make changes on the line. Compare that with Monaghan. After 15 -20 minutes we were being cleaned out in the full-back line, cue a couple of substitutions, Dessie off and McArdle on, Gollogly off and Woods on. Ruthless management, and definately something that Grimley has instilled in the set-up. In the past Banty would have waited until half-time or at least another 10 minutes, and that could well have been too late on Sunday. Clearly Grimley took the reigns yesterday and was making the big calls as he knows Armagh better than anyone else there, while Banty took a rare back-seat, but you can be sure Banty will be back pacing the touchline in the next game, Banty isn't one to be so quiet and he won't be like that against Cavan/Fermanagh.

Armagh waited too long to make changes and some they didn't make at all. The way their defence was set-up didn't make sense. Freeman, Finlay and McManus all had the beating of their men time and time again, while McKeever for some reason was given the task of looking after Hanratty, something which any Monaghan fan will tell you was very pleasing. Hanratty didn't have a great game but hopped around the place like a bee, bringing McKeever all over the place, leaving him in no mans land in the set-up for the goal and won a few frees, so he did his job. The obvious thing to do would have been switching around Mallon and Donaghy and putting McKeever onto Finlay. As sam says I fail to see why they wouldn't have looked after Finlay very closely, he loves playing Armagh going by his performances and I was very surprised Martin was marking him.

GAA-Fan wrote:I am seriously doubting Paddy O'Roukes ability to manage this team. He just wasnt motivating the team in any aspect of the game, what makes things look bad from an Armagh perspective is once again there was no plan B and no answer for when we lose a man. Its not the defeat itself its that touches a nerve it is the manner in which the manager and players took it, they gave up apart from one or two. Compare Grimley to O'Rouke. Grimley was up and down the sideline giving players instructions constantly giving them information on how to attack and defend against Armagh. O'Rouke didnt! Banty didn't do the same for Monaghan!

Well if I recall, you were on here during the game, so you can't say that for sure. In any case, a manager's work is done once his team steps out across the white line. Its all in the preparation, how many times did Conor Counihan of Cork walk up and down the line?

A good point on Jamie Clarke starting. It was a tough ask of any player of his age to come into a championship game after only a sub to be fair cameo role (touched the ball once great finish in fairness). Why wasnt Stefan Forker starting with Henderson ill we have been on about on this board before he seems to gone down the pecking order!

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:

GAA-Fan wrote:I am seriously doubting Paddy O'Roukes ability to manage this team. He just wasnt motivating the team in any aspect of the game, what makes things look bad from an Armagh perspective is once again there was no plan B and no answer for when we lose a man. Its not the defeat itself its that touches a nerve it is the manner in which the manager and players took it, they gave up apart from one or two. Compare Grimley to O'Rouke. Grimley was up and down the sideline giving players instructions constantly giving them information on how to attack and defend against Armagh. O'Rouke didnt! Banty didn't do the same for Monaghan!

Well if I recall, you were on here during the game, so you can't say that for sure. In any case, a manager's work is done once his team steps out across the white line. Its all in the preparation, how many times did Conor Counihan of Cork walk up and down the line?

Have you ever heard of a thing called Mobile Internet Loyal? Obviously you haven't. MMM was posting during the game and he was at it. Anyway, back to the point in question. Counihan might not have been walking up and down the sideline but did he have to reshuffle the team because a man was sent off? O'Rouke never even bothered shouting at the team to motivate them. Now if you were being paid thousands of pounds a year, this is exactly what they should be doing. Him and banty should have been charged as a spectator as Sunday's game.

GAA-Fan wrote:

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:

GAA-Fan wrote:I am seriously doubting Paddy O'Roukes ability to manage this team. He just wasnt motivating the team in any aspect of the game, what makes things look bad from an Armagh perspective is once again there was no plan B and no answer for when we lose a man. Its not the defeat itself its that touches a nerve it is the manner in which the manager and players took it, they gave up apart from one or two. Compare Grimley to O'Rouke. Grimley was up and down the sideline giving players instructions constantly giving them information on how to attack and defend against Armagh. O'Rouke didnt! Banty didn't do the same for Monaghan!

Well if I recall, you were on here during the game, so you can't say that for sure. In any case, a manager's work is done once his team steps out across the white line. Its all in the preparation, how many times did Conor Counihan of Cork walk up and down the line?

Have you ever heard of a thing called Mobile Internet Loyal? Obviously you haven't. MMM was posting during the game and he was at it. Anyway, back to the point in question. Counihan might not have been walking up and down the sideline but did he have to reshuffle the team because a man was sent off? O'Rouke never even bothered shouting at the team to motivate them. Now if you were being paid thousands of pounds a year, this is exactly what they should be doing. Him and banty should have been charged as a spectator as Sunday's game.

Okay, well I'm not in the habit of surfing the internet during GAA games. The bits that are in bold above are the parts I would class as amateur analysis. Have you ever seen Sean Boylan or Mickey Harte shout? If the Armagh players need shouting at to be motivated during a championship game, then enough said.

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:

GAA-Fan wrote:

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:

GAA-Fan wrote:I am seriously doubting Paddy O'Roukes ability to manage this team. He just wasnt motivating the team in any aspect of the game, what makes things look bad from an Armagh perspective is once again there was no plan B and no answer for when we lose a man. Its not the defeat itself its that touches a nerve it is the manner in which the manager and players took it, they gave up apart from one or two. Compare Grimley to O'Rouke. Grimley was up and down the sideline giving players instructions constantly giving them information on how to attack and defend against Armagh. O'Rouke didnt! Banty didn't do the same for Monaghan!

Well if I recall, you were on here during the game, so you can't say that for sure. In any case, a manager's work is done once his team steps out across the white line. Its all in the preparation, how many times did Conor Counihan of Cork walk up and down the line?

Have you ever heard of a thing called Mobile Internet Loyal? Obviously you haven't. MMM was posting during the game and he was at it. Anyway, back to the point in question. Counihan might not have been walking up and down the sideline but did he have to reshuffle the team because a man was sent off? O'Rouke never even bothered shouting at the team to motivate them. Now if you were being paid thousands of pounds a year, this is exactly what they should be doing. Him and banty should have been charged as a spectator as Sunday's game.

Okay, well I'm not in the habit of surfing the internet during GAA games. The bits that are in bold above are the parts I would class as amateur analysis. Have you ever seen Sean Boylan or Mickey Harte shout? If the Armagh players need shouting at to be motivated during a championship game, then enough said.

Fair enough not shout, but at least instruct players to try something different. But he didnt have the plan B in place, so only thing left to do was to motivate them and get them to attack more frequently. If they scored those two wasteful points in the first half, they might have woken up and made more of a game of it.

The red card? An elbow to the head? A pre meditated elbow to the head? Certainly, should get about 6 months.

So....obviously Brian mallon IS the type of guy who does that.