Half-Backs/Half Forwards in the Modern Game

The last ten years have seen many changes in how Gaelic Football is being played. But the most significant of all in my opinion are the roles of the half-back and the half-forward. In the old days, the number five and seven were typical backs and the number ten and twelve were typical forwards.

But today, the roles are completely reversed. All the half-forwards for the top tier of teams are defenders whilst the half-backs are extremely attack minded. The likes of Brian Dooher and Joe McMahon for Tyrone, Paul Galvin and Donnacha Walsh for Kerry and Patrick Kelly and Paul Kerrigan for Cork always drop deep to press the attacking team and defend by zoning. How often do Dooher and Galvin pick up the ball deep in their own half and look to get the ball out to the wings to their corresponding wing back? The onus is then on the wing-back to start the attack. Now maybe the attacking wing-back has been around for longer than the pressing half-forward but its only been late that teams have begun to perfect it. Again look at the Cork, Kerry and Tyrone's half backs: Noel O'Leary and John Miskella, Tomas O'Se and Killian Young, Davy Harte and Philip Jordan. All excellent footballers in the sense that they're brilliant kickers of a football. Its seldom now that any of the half-forwards named look to play long passes bar maybe Galvin, instead its the half-backs who orchestrate all the attacks. And vice versa, how many of the six half-backs named are known for the traditional defensive skills such as tackling and reading? None bar O'Leary at a push. Instead its the half-forwards like Dooher, Kelly and Walsh who put in the most hours tackling and pressurising while the more panacheful footballers do the stylish things from across the half-back line.

Meath are playing a lot like this too (or at least they try to) and perhaps thats as good a reason as any as to why we've reached two semi-finals in three years. Peader Byrne and Anthony Moyles as half-forwards and Caoimhin King, Chris O'Conner and Cormac McGuinness in defence. We're set up a lot like Kerry. Other under-achieving teams like Dublin, Galway and Derry are not set up at all to play like this and maybe thats why they've such a lack of recent success. It could be said that Dublin, Derry and Galway are back in the stone-age and haven't copped on to the best ways to beat the best. The penny could have dropped with O'Mahony too with Trevor Mortimer as a half-forward dropping very deep now and Andy Moran in defence every so often.

Discuss.

Great post Loyal - a lot of thought obviously put into it. The last 10 years have indeed seen a transformation in the way football is played, and I've no doubt that the next 10 will see it evolve again.

I wouldn't go as far as to agree that the changing roles of wing-half forwards/backs has been the biggest change (for me the biggest change has been Mickey Harte's perfection of pressing - watch the 1st half of Tyrone v Kerry 2003 as a reference point to when football changed forever), but it has certainly been striking and has altered the way the game is now played.

You are right when you talk about half backs now having to be able to attack comfortably and effectively. With wing-forwards spending so much time foraging for breaks and protecting the central zone in behind their midfield, there is usually a lot of space for the wing-backs to move up into and exploit. They, as much as anyone on the field, have become the new playmakers in gaelic football, epitomised by the likes of Davy Harte, Tomas O'Se & Killian Young. Sean O'Neill of Tyrone is another who I expect to revel in that sort of freedom if Mickey Harte gives him his chance this summer.

Wing -half forwards aren't totally absolved from creative duties in the modern game (Paddy Kelly & Paul Galvin both contribute considerably in this area) but, for most counties, their brief is now normally a more defensive one.

This has had implications for other positions as well, and with fitness levels reaching the point were space on the field is now so limited, tactical innovations and exploitation of space will go a long way to deciding which sides dominate over the next decade.

Good stuff L. I have posted on this previous. I reckon Tyrone's Sams were won without 2 'conventional' midfielders - with the HB (and HF) line being key. Will have a think about this and post more later. Good subject.

Of course, in the nineties, players like Paul Curran, Seamus Moynihan and Sean Og De Poar pioneered the current wing half-back. These were a new brand of half-back who's strengths lied in what they could do with the ball in the hand as oppposed to the popular half-back at the time who's role was solely to defend. But instead of raiding down the wings, they cut inside and penetrated forward from there.

It was only with the arrival of Tyrone and Armagh that the half-forwards in their current format came to prominence. Half-forwards became surrogate defenders pressing the attacking team from deep in their own half. And as you say this allowed the half-backs acres of space down the wings to launch attacks. Credit to Mickey Harte and co. for founding this idea but also credit to the Kerry men who copped it fairly quick and then to use it themselves to great effect. Later, Colm Coyle, Conor Counihan and more recently John O'Mahony adapted to this modern style to fairly good effect.

I think TC is right, all good number fives and sevens have to be playmakers now. We'll probably see a situation where the most natural of footballers are being picked in the half-back line and the artisans are being picked in the half-forward line. The question is, will Galway, Derry, Dublin, Donegal, Armagh and Mayo have to pick their teams like this to succeed. Hardly a co-incidence that the four semi-finalists last year were built around this principle.

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:Of course, in the nineties, players like Paul Curran, Seamus Moynihan and Sean Og De Poar pioneered the current wing half-back. These were a new brand of half-back who's strengths lied in what they could do with the ball in the hand as oppposed to the popular half-back at the time who's role was solely to defend. But instead of raiding down the wings, they cut inside and penetrated forward from there.

It was only with the arrival of Tyrone and Armagh that the half-forwards in their current format came to prominence. Half-forwards became surrogate defenders pressing the attacking team from deep in their own half. And as you say this allowed the half-backs acres of space down the wings to launch attacks. Credit to Mickey Harte and co. for founding this idea but also credit to the Kerry men who copped it fairly quick and then to use it themselves to great effect. Later, Colm Coyle, Conor Counihan and more recently John O'Mahony adapted to this modern style to fairly good effect.

I think TC is right, all good number fives and sevens have to be playmakers now. We'll probably see a situation where the most natural of footballers are being picked in the half-back line and the artisans are being picked in the half-forward line. The question is, will Galway, Derry, Dublin, Donegal, Armagh and Mayo have to pick their teams like this to succeed. Hardly a co-incidence that the four semi-finalists last year were built around this principle.

For the Meath game this weekend we have named 2 recognised half backs in the wing forward positions (Frank McGlynn and Barry Dunnion). Looks like 14 men defending for Donegal with Michael Murphy carring the attacking responsibilities.
Adrian Hanlon and David Walsh

Donegal were at this last year too RMD, notably when Cork beat them in the All-Ireland Qtr Final. That day they played McFadden & Murphy as a 2 man attack, with only Roper within 40 yards of them. Rory Kavanagh played so deep that day that John Miskella was basically an extra forward for Cork.

Having seen Cork's half-backs and mifielders pouring forward and driving past Donegal all afternoon, I was amazed that Tyrone tried to play Cork in a similar way, albeit not quite as deep as Donegal. Inviting Cork onto you is asking for trouble, as they are just so strong and fast, and it must count as one of Mickey Harte & Tony Donnelly's rare tactical mistakes, although, in fairness, not having Sean Cavanagh to get up and support O'Neill & Mulligan was a huge blow to making the tactic work.

Limerick, in Munster, and Kerry in the final showed that you have to stop Cork running up the field, and try and put those big midfielders and defenders on the back foot, where they aren't anywhere near as comfortable.

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:Of course, in the nineties, players like Paul Curran, Seamus Moynihan and Sean Og De Poar pioneered the current wing half-back. These were a new brand of half-back who's strengths lied in what they could do with the ball in the hand as oppposed to the popular half-back at the time who's role was solely to defend. But instead of raiding down the wings, they cut inside and penetrated forward from there.

It was only with the arrival of Tyrone and Armagh that the half-forwards in their current format came to prominence. Half-forwards became surrogate defenders pressing the attacking team from deep in their own half. And as you say this allowed the half-backs acres of space down the wings to launch attacks. Credit to Mickey Harte and co. for founding this idea but also credit to the Kerry men who copped it fairly quick and then to use it themselves to great effect. Later, Colm Coyle, Conor Counihan and more recently John O'Mahony adapted to this modern style to fairly good effect.

I think TC is right, all good number fives and sevens have to be playmakers now. We'll probably see a situation where the most natural of footballers are being picked in the half-back line and the artisans are being picked in the half-forward line. The question is, will Galway, Derry, Dublin, Donegal, Armagh and Mayo have to pick their teams like this to succeed. Hardly a co-incidence that the four semi-finalists last year were built around this principle.

Loyal did you watch Meath in the late 90s

[quote="Thomas Clarke"]Great post Loyal - a lot of thought obviously put into it. The last 10 years have indeed seen a transformation in the way football is played, and I've no doubt that the next 10 will see it evolve again.

I wouldn't go as far as to agree that the changing roles of wing-half forwards/backs has been the biggest change (for me the biggest change has been Mickey Harte's perfection of pressing - watch the 1st half of Tyrone v Kerry 2003 as a reference point to when football changed forever), but it has certainly been striking and has altered the way the game is now played.

You are right when you talk about half backs now having to be able to attack comfortably and effectively. With wing-forwards spending so much time foraging for breaks and protecting the central zone in behind their midfield, there is usually a lot of space for the wing-backs to move up into and exploit. They, as much as anyone on the field, have become the new playmakers in gaelic football, epitomised by the likes of Davy Harte, Tomas O'Se & Killian Young. Sean O'Neill of Tyrone is another who I expect to revel in that sort of freedom if Mickey Harte gives him his chance this summer.

Wing -half forwards aren't totally absolved from creative duties in the modern game (Paddy Kelly & Paul Galvin both contribute considerably in this area) but, for most counties, their brief is now normally a more defensive one.

This has had implications for other positions as well, and with fitness levels reaching the point were space on the field is now so limited, tactical innovations and exploitation of space will go a long way to deciding which sides dominate over the next decade.[/quot

Football has'nt changed its still 15 v 15.....

So you think the game is played in the same way now as it was 10, 20, 50, 100 years ago Mullins?

Thomas Clarke wrote:So you think the game is played in the same way now as it was 10, 20, 50, 100 ago Mullins?

Yes i do -Did the game change recently

Well, it is still 15-a-side, but to me it bears little resemblance to what it was like when, say, your namesake was playing. It is evolving all the time.

Thomas Clarke wrote:Well, it is still 15-a-side, but to me it bears little resemblance to what it was like when, say, your namesake was playing. It is evolving all the time.

TC its still 15 against 15 of course the games evolve..But just because Tyrone won a few All Ireland doesn't mean you have the blue print...If you do you will collect another couple over the next 5 years....If not you are wrong..

mullins wrote: TC its still 15 against 15 of course the games evolve..But just because Tyrone won a few All Ireland doesn't mean you have the blue print...If you do you will collect another couple over the next 5 years....If not you are wrong..

You've lost me Mullins. Who said anything about having a blueprint? And I'm not sure how Tyrone winning/losing another couple of all-irelands would prove or disprove the idea that tactics and systems among the top sides are changing?

The whole point is that things change all the time, and the successful sides are those who are able to identify advantages and capitalise on them. What worked for Tyrone in the last 6-7 years won't work for them in the next 6-7 years, as the way the game is being played is always changing.

Thomas Clarke

You are correct in your observation about DL last year. we held a static 6 man half back line against a marauding Miskella led Cork half back line and got absolutely stuffed

Alas its not just last year - for several years we have been playing a 2 man full forward line 2 from (Murphy,Dev,Mcfadden,Sweeney) with Roper on the 45 whilst the no.15 e.g McDermott plays as a wide midfielder. the 2 wing forwards - Toye,bonner,Kavanagh,hegarty etc play back on their own 45.

This can work only if the half backs are complete fottballers and can integrate with the half forward line who need to be super fit as has worked with the Kerry/Tyrone wing backs working off a super engine wing forward like Dooher or Galvin

We are a long way short of this mark and our efforts have been outplayed by

1) Cork last year
2) mcgeeney 5 times in a row from 02-06 - bypass the crowded area with long diagonal ball to two high fielding forwards - Clarke/Mcdonnel
3) Tyrone in 2007 Ulster semi


ie we have not got the talent to play this system and it only works if you have good ball carriers at half back who can carry and score - in addition the half forwars needs to cover every inch and half to be supreme work horses

Thomas Clarke wrote:The whole point is that things change all the time, and the successful sides are those who are able to identify advantages and capitalise on them. What worked for Tyrone in the last 6-7 years won't work for them in the next 6-7 years, as the way the game is being played is always changing.

I've followed this thread from it's inception with a certain air of doubt.....I've seen what are the so-called "great" teams of the last 50 years or so and therefore state that the first smidgéon of attacking wing half-backs were the Galway duo of John Donnellan and Martin Newell in the 63-66 team (Granted Donnellan was dropped in '66) .
Newell was a fine ball-carrier with a sweet left foot who set the template in Gaway football for the likes of dePaor to slot into. Donnellan, though a more renowned defender, had huge carrying skills and like Newell, was frequently spotted "on the burst" inside the opposing '50.
The fact that the wing-forwards Dunne (Deadly off placed balls) and Leyden (A bullet on the burst) didn't participate in defending duties is a tribute to Sean Meade at CHB.

I watched Leitrim V Carlow yesterday in the lowest division...it's still a simple game for all the bullshit..Get it..use it..

Boxtyeater wrote:

Thomas Clarke wrote:The whole point is that things change all the time, and the successful sides are those who are able to identify advantages and capitalise on them. What worked for Tyrone in the last 6-7 years won't work for them in the next 6-7 years, as the way the game is being played is always changing.

I've followed this thread from it's inception with a certain air of doubt.....I've seen what are the so-called "great" teams of the last 50 years or so and therefore state that the first smidgéon of attacking wing half-backs were the Galway duo of John Donnellan and Martin Newell in the 63-66 team (Granted Donnellan was dropped in '66) .
Newell was a fine ball-carrier with a sweet left foot who set the template in Gaway football for the likes of dePaor to slot into. Donnellan, though a more renowned defender, had huge carrying skills and like Newell, was frequently spotted "on the burst" inside the opposing '50.
The fact that the wing-forwards Dunne (Deadly off placed balls) and Leyden (A bullet on the burst) didn't participate in defending duties is a tribute to Sean Meade at CHB.

I watched Leitrim V Carlow yesterday in the lowest division...it's still a simple game for all the bullshit..Get it..use it..

Well said boxty i don'y buy in to this system wins matchs-I believe good players win All Irelands..Not systems if that was the case how come the smaller counties can't compete at the highest levels -Any one can put a system in place.

I appreciate a lot of what you are saying Boxty, and there is no doubt that the best 'tactic' of all is to pick 15 players that are better than the opposition's 15. The great, self-proclaimed anti-tactician of our game, Mick O'Dwyer, perfected that 'tactic' in the '70s.

However, in my view, the problem comes when a manager doesn't have a better set of footballers that the opposition. With no real advantages for any sides in terms of fitness nowadays, the only way for a side to win in this circumstance is to maximise the areas of the field where they have an advantage, and minimise the damage done in the areas where the oppositon are stronger. Yes, a lot of it will still come down to the individuals on the field and what they do in certain situations as the game unfolds, but, in my opinion, it's a manager's responsibility to give those individuals as much space as possible in which to shine.

As for the attacking wing-backs, I appreciate that wing-backs attacked well before the last decade, but I think the reason why sides are doing it now are different than they were in the past. Rather than having a wing-back breaking forward to support the 6 forwards, now wing-backs are breaking forward to replace the half-forwards. The need for footballers at 5&7 is now essential, rather than a nice bonus, as most sides don't have a complete half-forward line playing along the 40. Also, as most of the half-forwards are lurking just in front of the opposition CHB, you often find that it is the wing-backs who have much more space in which to play.

Rua makes a good point about Donegal's defeats to Armagh. McGeeney was dominant in all of those games, not as a defender, but as a playmaking CHB. As Paddy McKeever & John McEntee played so deep, McGeeney's passing was crucial to their attacking gameplan, hand-passing out of defence, and then a long, diagonal McGeeney pass to feed Clarke & McDonnell. He was so important to them that in 2005, arguably when Armagh were at their best, Kernan played Tony McEntee as a 2nd CHB to do McGeeney's defensive work, and release him to control the game.

Mullins, give it up.

Just the other day you were calling for Gilroy to revert to the old style way of playing. Surely the long ball tactic is in itself a system?

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:Mullins, give it up.

Just the other day you were calling for Gilroy to revert to the old style way of playing. Surely the long ball tactic is in itself a system?

Loyal the sad thing about it for you- it doesn't matter what team or system we play against the royals..We will beat you pulling up as usual..Always remember meath will always be one of the minnows.....

As i great Dublin player said We Are Dublin

mullins wrote:

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:Mullins, give it up.

Just the other day you were calling for Gilroy to revert to the old style way of playing. Surely the long ball tactic is in itself a system?

Loyal the sad thing about it for you- it doesn't matter what team or system we play against the royals..We will beat you pulling up as usual..Always remember meath will always be one of the minnows.....

As i great Dublin player said We Are Dublin

Fair enough I agree.

What about my question?

A sensible answer could you get back in my good books.

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:

mullins wrote:

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:Mullins, give it up.

Just the other day you were calling for Gilroy to revert to the old style way of playing. Surely the long ball tactic is in itself a system?

Loyal the sad thing about it for you- it doesn't matter what team or system we play against the royals..We will beat you pulling up as usual..Always remember meath will always be one of the minnows.....

As i great Dublin player said We Are Dublin

Fair enough I agree.

What about my question?

A sensible answer could you get back in my good books.

You can't answer my questions on this thread or the other thread?

Point of the forum is to debate but the best you can come up with is a few emoticons. And you claim to be above me. Maybe thats why you can't reply, is it? Whatever you want to convince yourself.

Thats you and Esther who I have slayed in the last few days. Getting a bit sick of posters running away from good debate.

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:You can't answer my questions on this thread or the other thread?

Point of the forum is to debate but the best you can come up with is a few emoticons. And you claim to be above me. Maybe thats why you can't reply, is it? Whatever you want to convince yourself.

Thats you and Esther who I have slayed in the last few days. Getting a bit sick of posters running away from good debate.

Loyals quote

From a personal point of view, I would say, yes, there are nine or ten posters whom I tend to ignore.

Its the same old stuff with a lot of them. Sometimes, you wonder what they are doing on a GAA website at all.


DEBATE THAT LOYAL....

mullins wrote:Loyals quote

From a personal point of view, I would say, yes, there are nine or ten posters whom I tend to ignore.

Its the same old stuff with a lot of them. Sometimes, you wonder what they are doing on a GAA website at all.


DEBATE THAT LOYAL....

1-0 to mullins!!

Jayo Cluxton wrote:
1-0 to mullins!!

Don't know about that Jayo, I reckon you might have the blue-tinted glasses on your while reffing that one!

I fear that, over the last few days, Mullins has begun to confuse himself with his alter-ego of another part of cyberspce, Tomaoo7...