Was Pele that good?

Interesting TC.

Defenders are regularly hard done by in these debates. And even if they are mentioned, its normally the attack minded ones who feature most prominently, Nilton Santos, Carlos Alberto, Andreas Brehme and Djalma Santos and so forth.

So who was the greatest ever centre-half/sweeper? Paolo Maldini, Franco Baresi, Franz Beckenbaur or Bobby Moore?

From the most recent era, where the focus on defending has grew, Alessandro Nesta and Fabio Cannavaro deserve a mention as well as Argentina's Roberto Ayala and Holland's Ronald Koeman.

Others I've seen mentioned are Elias Figueroa (Chile), Giacinto Facchetti (Italy) and Héctor Chumpitaz (Peru)?

Yes Loyal, I realised when I was typing the above that Beckenbauer was the only defender I had mentioned, but the reality is that very few defenders have the skill levels of a top creative midfielder, hence I woudn't rate them as great as a Maradona or Di Stefano. Some of the others you mentioned like Moore, Nesta & Cannavaro were very solid defenders, but certainly would never have made it as top level midfielders, something that Beckenbauer also was.

Determining the best central defender / sweeper depends on many things, not least what era and style of player you like. For instance, pre-Beckenbauer sweepers were traditionally stoppers, just a third central defender to stop attacks. but Celtic's victory over Inter Milan in 1967 European Cup Final showed the weakness in this system, namely that if you have 3 defensive centre-backs, you are almost certainly going to short of numbers in midfield. Hence, Beckenbauer, followed by the majestic Gaetano Scirea, became the key exponents in taking the ball out of defence and creating an extra man in midifield.

It also depends on who you have partnering them. Exceptions like Elias Figueroa & Franco Baresi aside, most players in that position need a partner to compensate for their weaknesses. For instance, a athletic marker like Marcel Desaiily had the skillful and aware Laurent Blanc to step into midfield a pick passes for him, while Scirea had Claudio Gentille to do his marking.

If you are looking for players who could contribute both in attack and defence, then you have to look at the likes of Baresi, Beckenbauer, Scirea, Figueroa and Uruguayan Obdulio Varela. Austrian Ernst Ocwirk was another who was considered at the same time classy and resolute.

A couple of the other names you mentioned, while sometimes played centrally, had more success as full-backs (Maldini & Facchetti), so probably couldn't be considered as the best centre-backs/sweepers, although both would figure in a debate about the best left-back of all-time.

Beckenbaur obviously, Scirea, baresi, Cannavero, and a few others will come to mind eventually.

In English football Moore and Hansen were very good, but the best was probably McGrath, who could also play mid field.

patrique wrote:
In English football Moore and Hansen were very good, but the best was probably McGrath, who could also play mid field.

I'd agree with that. although I somehow forgot about him. McGrath had strength, pace, positioning, good in the air and no small amount of skill. A really brilliant footballer.

Thomas Clarke wrote:
I'd agree with that. although I somehow forgot about him. McGrath had strength, pace, positioning, good in the air and no small amount of skill. A really brilliant footballer.

Excellent posts TC ....thoughful, rational and well constructed....take a bow Sir....

However, on the topic, I notice one glaring omission, that of the legendary Irish defender/midfielder Kevin Kilbane.....
He has even more caps I'd say than Pele.....

Boxtyeater wrote:
However, on the topic, I notice one glaring omission, that of the legendary Irish defender/midfielder Kevin Kilbane.....
He has even more caps I'd say than Pele.....

And what's better, he shows no signs of slowing up, aren't we lucky to still have him bombing up the left wing..

mid-mon man wrote:[And what's better, he shows no signs of slowing up, aren't we lucky to still have him bombing up the left wing..

Will he outlast Maldini d'ya think?

Boxtyeater wrote:

mid-mon man wrote:[And what's better, he shows no signs of slowing up, aren't we lucky to still have him bombing up the left wing..

Will he outlast Maldini d'ya think?

If anyone can, the great man can! Only 24 more caps til he surpasses Maldini!

I'd say he'll run for President. It would be his first time running. And Paul McShane would be his deputy. When Paul plays football with the kids he is always the last one picked ....

Real Kerry Fan,

Daniel Passarella was one of the greatest defenders of all-time. True, he was past his primer by the 86 World Cup, but to call him "alright" is ridiculous.

Who on Earth is this Anonymous/Juju? Can people post anonymously now?

Yes I believe you can Essie

Sami wrote:Yes I believe you can Essie

Oh my God! Somebody has cunningly stolen Sami's identity and is trying to impersonate him!

EstherMayo1951 wrote:

Sami wrote:Yes I believe you can Essie

Oh my God! Somebody has cunningly stolen Sami's identity and is trying to impersonate him!

how dare they!