Re: Qualifiers Round 3

**Thomas Clarke** Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:04 am

Boxtyeater wrote:I'd disagree on a few things there TC if I may.

Kildare have a proven liability in the scoring stakes, particularly their failure to create or score goals.
Granted and sadly, Doyle has, yet again in 2013, been their most potent forward. The fresher faces you refer to, Kelly, Brophy, Cribben FFS etc., are not up to it in the heat of Summer football, not in 2013, nor will they be any better by 2016.

They're allegedly fit, well looked after, but the stone basic requirement is still missing, scoring power.
In the main tonight they were/looked a mid-table Div 2 side, handy passers in their own half, but bereft of a leader/playmaker who could prise open a defense with a raking ball. On top of all that, in their efforts for success, they've become cynical and negative with their defending.

It reached a point in chateau Boxty the evening, where herself was hoping that Tyrone would tear them to shreds....To me, they have been the antithesis of what football is about and I'm not sorry to see the last of them for 2013 or thereafter.

It's up to their C/B on McGeeney. He's kept them competitive, stabilised the situation, but looks fairly inept when the fat is in the fire. He's spent too much time looking at Barcelona, with their tippy-tappy possession football. Granted, he may have found a couple of Piques, but he'll want a few Messis' as well...

They're out.....I'm delighted.

I know what you are saying, Boxty, but were they really any worse than the vast majority of sides over that period? I always felt that McGeeney more or less got as much as was possible out of Kildare. They didn't have the class in attack, and compensated by being stronger, fitter and faster than most sides they faced.

Yes, they had some desperately bad days and looked as poor a side as ever took the field, but they also had some brilliant performances, showing real heart in coming from behind in a lot of games.

For me, McGeeney's tenure made them relevant again, and while they still may lack a genuine star among their young lads, I think that they will still be one of the best sides in Leinster for the next few years.

**emmetryan** Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:45 pm

Hi guys,

Tactical analysis on an unusual evening in Newbridge here
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Emmet

**bocerty** Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:58 am

the long and the short of it is he has been there 6 years now has cost them an absolute fortune and has won f**k all. Decide for yourself if thats progress or not.

They may be a different team from the one he inherited but they are no closer to winning anything - maybe success in Kildare isnt or shouldn't be measured by trophies etc but they have taken some beatings in those 6 years.

**Thomas Clarke** Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:15 am

Boc, I agree with what you are saying about the money, and I'm very opposed to any outside managers at inter-county level. However, plenty of other managers have cost a fortune without the results that McGeeney achieved. I think it is too easy to say 'he won nothing, so he failed', as there aren't that many trophies to go round, and sometimes success needs to be measured by more than just silverware. Win or nothing is not a culture that I like - sport is about much more than that.

Have a quick look at the contrast between Kildare's championship exits pre-McGeeney and during his tenure, both the rounds of exit and the sides they lost to. I think it is fairly clear that he did improve them, and made them relevant again. It was much more fun being a Kildare fan for the last few years than is was in the years that preceded them.

Under McGeeney
2013: Tyrone (3rd Rd)
2012: Cork (Q-final)
2011: Donegal (Q-final)
2010: Down (AI Semi)
2009: Tyrone (Q-final)
2008: Cork (Q-final)

Pre-McGeeney
2007: Louth (2nd Rd)
2006: Derry (2nd Rd)
2005: Sligo (2nd Rd)
2004: Offaly (1st Rd)

**bald eagle** Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:39 am

How much he cost Kildare should never be brought into it as that is the county boards problem not his

Kildare have never really been achievers for him to be called a failure, they had a few years in the late 90's to early 00's where they reached an all ireland final but before that you have to go back years! Arguements i have heard pro-McGeeney is that he has helped create youth county structues that previously didn't exist & that they are now challenging at Minor & u-21 when previously they hadn't.

Kildare fans now have expectations where before they had hopes, that to me shows he has progressed them well!

**bocerty** Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:43 am

bald eagle wrote:How much he cost Kildare should never be brought into it as that is the county boards problem not his

Kildare have never really been achievers for him to be called a failure, they had a few years in the late 90's to early 00's where they reached an all ireland final but before that you have to go back years! Arguements i have heard pro-McGeeney is that he has helped create youth county structues that previously didn't exist & that they are now challenging at Minor & u-21 when previously they hadn't.

Kildare fans now have expectations where before they had hopes, that to me shows he has progressed them well!

totally disagree BE if he thought he was good enough to demand the figures that i am hearing then you have to deliver more than what he has delivered - yes it is the Co Boards issue when they agreed to fund his tenure in charge but you cant say it shouldn't be brought into it.

yes you can argue that he has brought them on but the improvements have been in the early years - can you seriously tell me they are a better side than they were 3 years ago. they have the same weaknesses make the same mistakes and still rely heavily on a 35 year old for scores.

I agree there are others out there who are making fortunes on the back of no progress at all (Canavan in Fermanagh being a perfect example).

Maybe i am being harsh on him, maybe i expected far too much maybe its Monday and the form isnt good Razz

**KerryKatriona** Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:03 pm

Regardless of money his tactics v Dublin were suicidal and on Saturday he made changes when they got level that possibly cost them the game. Underage is going well but this can not be solely put down to McGeeney. Anthony Rainbow is at Carlow and Glen Ryan at Longford. These are the type of guys Kildare should be looking to. McGeeney has not even delivered a Leinster when a weaker Meath team won one.

**Thomas Clarke** Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:13 pm

bocerty wrote: I agree there are others out there who are making fortunes on the back of no progress at all (Canavan in Fermanagh being a perfect example).

Maybe i am being harsh on him, maybe i expected far too much maybe its Monday and the form isnt good

Lol, far too harsh indeed, Boc - it must be a Monday thing! Fermanagh were the worst team in Ireland when Canavan took over 2 years ago, and he had them on the verge of division 2 this year. They also beat Westmeath (who got promoted to D1) in the championship, and lost out to a decent Cavan side. All this with arguably the smallest playing pool in Ireland.

I hear he still hasn't committed to Fermanagh for next year yet. Perhaps a job closer to home...?

**bocerty** Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:05 pm

put it like this Malachy O' Rourke has done in 1 year what Geezer hasnt in 6 years.

Are you telling me that Monaghans players are any better individually or collectively than Kildare, i would say they are on a par.

Monaghan werent in a great place when O' Rourke took over and yet look what he has delivered. Now dont get me wrong i know full well O' Rourke isnt doing this for the good of his health nor is his backroom team but either way it can now be looked upon as money well spent by Monaghan Co Board. Can Kildare Co Board say the same?

**bald eagle** Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:35 pm

I think you are being way too harsh on him Boc, and seriously, comparing Ulster & Leinster is like comparing night & day when you have a county like Dublin involved! Especially now that they appear to be using their massive population & budgets to their advantage. Take Meaths freak result against Dublin then fluking Leinster a few years back out of the equation and no one has touched the Dubs for the best part of a decade!

Also, if the Kildare CB are prepared to pay the money then it's their problem if they are broke, no one forced them to pay it! Same with Fermanagh & Peter the Great (player)

**Loyal2TheRoyal** Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:13 pm

Everything has been in Monaghan's favour so far this year. Yesterday will probably be viewed as a case of right place, right time. Donegal were off colour and Monaghan, an improving side, at home, - well it all nicely into place. They were able to build up some nice form in the League and follow it up with two nice warm up matches against more Division 3 opposition. There were no injuries and the referee let a lot of their borderline stuff go.

Really that's the bit of luck Kildare have been missing. When they were improving, they suffered several key injuries to key players and had some awful decisions go against them in big games. Decisions that probably cost them those games.

I would also dispute the financial argument. Where is their evidence that he earns more than any manager?

I do agree with one post though - Kerry Katriona. McGeeney throughout his tenure has had an obsession with launching high balls in on top of Tomas O'Connor, Dermot Earley, Rob Kelly, Ronan Sweeney, Ken Donnelly. He has the young lads there now and Brophy, Hurley, Flynn, Dowling all 6ft 3" plus have all found themselves in the full-forward line. Whether they've played here underage or not, it didn't matter to McGeeney. All his teams had to have height in the full-forward line and I don't remember a single game where this tactic caused major consternation for any team.

**Thomas Clarke** Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:46 pm

Interesting point about the FF line, Loyal. I think this comes back to the age old question: 'Do you pick the players to suit the system, or pick the system to suit the players?'

The vast majority of managers of teams choose a system and pick the players accordingly, but I've always believed that this is the easier option, and the lesser option too.

I hate to see talented players on the bench because they supposedly don't fit into the system a manager has selected, and therefore lose their places to less talented players. If you go down that road you are eroding the talent level of your side.

The alternative requires creativity, as the approach is to look at your best players, and work out how to maximise their talents. However, if you get it right, you can find an effective system that sees all your best players contributing on the field, and I believe that should be one of the most important goals of any manager. It's a shame most managers don't seem to think this way.

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