Shankhill Butchers and Collusion

This is a difficult and emotive issue, I can see all the sides of it and would plead with all contributors to be as careful and sensitive as possible when posting to the thread.....

It has probably got a little sidetracked. Hipster if you were referring to me about the who has had it worst thing that was certainly not what i intended because i have not had it too bad. Certainly not compared to many people i know anyway.

Its actaully a bit wierd looking back on it all now. A friend from Meath came up to stay with me for a few days over Christmas. We were walking to the local, passed a little stone monument where a neighbour of mine had been shot dead by loyalists (UDR suspected). After i explained what it was plenty of other incidents came flooding back. The night my aunt and cousins fled across the housing estate to our family home as there was a gun battle going on to close to their own. Blown up wall where the provos had fired a grenade at passing foot patrol. House where my cousin was shot through living room window(luckily he survived, although i had another shot dead in Portadown). Spot where i was caught up in a gun battle myself during a riot. Army raids. So many things that actually seemed normal at the time. When i told him all these stories he was a bit shocked. Certainly a much better place to live now.

no samin i was not i just hate seeing people row over the same thing a lot of people suffered up there we were very lucky down here

Well said Boxty. I read the book and a good few others on similar subjects . Bandit Country (Toby Johnson?) especially good I thought. Some really thought provoking posts here and interesting to read about the immediate effect on posters. Complacency may be the biggest enemy ....

samin12 wrote:

North Side Gael wrote:I responded with the same ageist arrogance you met me with, its a well known fact the most likely person to be killed during the "troubles" was a white catholic between 18 and 15 from north belfast, we faced the murder gangs of the shankhill in the in every decade the shankhill butchers wasnt just one, what im getting at with you, is that its not just what happened 40 years ago and this patronising bull **** is only sending kids to be more extreme that they wouldnt know etc, why does anyone every stop to ask them what they do know, why did they join?

Samin, i agree with much of what you said, i feel the putting in about hoods for dissidents is a bit of a silly political talk comment, i mean have you met many? I was a dissident activist in a group but now act independently, you need to go deeper than the local boys, i dont deny there isnt hoods but there was hoods in the Provos also dont forget!The dissidents in ardoyne are called upon now for nearly all anti social behaviour and the clean up theyve done over the past 5/6 years is unreal, it went from kids on the street taking drugs in the middle of the day light to them being unable to act without the fear of political activists knocking their door to inform them they arent wanted in the area.

There certainly was but they were usually dealt with by their own which does not seem to be the case with dissidents. Unfortunately it is not a political comment, around my local area most people know who these so called Republicans are. In some cases they were put out of the town by the provos in the 90's and early 00's for anti social behaviour. Most Republicans in the area would have very little to do with them. Granted there are laso those who have lost family members or have served long jail terms who feel they have unfinished business (i can to an extent see their side).

I dont think this is the place to reveal that you were a member of a dissident group, but if it was to try and rid your area of drug dealers or other scum then more par to you but if its to try and fight the British and force a withdrawal then im sorry lad but your p*****g in the wind.

Lad, i know where your coming from, i have said before i was a member of a political organisation nothing else, believe me nothing else.

The provos in the city had bad boys who werent dealt with ever, i know this to be the case in dublin as well, but i have heard of the cases down the country where boys are "joining up" for their own personal gains.

Im a political activist, i believe even outside of my own politics we can achieve a better shared future, which could also get rid of the sectarian hatred in our societies, i dont we achieved the best deal in terms of having the ultimate peace, believe me i dont think a united ireland will be achieved through trying to blow the sh*t out of the brits, but we must not ignore those who do, because as they grow, we are simply saying your wrong, instead of asking why are you joining? Its not that they are all sectarian bigots, or hoods looking for their own gain, there is more to it than that, and as a former sinn fein member i cant condemn it, i do believe it is the wrong way to go about business though.

I believe that the good friday agreement has given us a scrapping ground for the crumbs the british throw to us in their budget, to be fair to the brits of late compared to the scots and welsh the crumbs are more like slices of bread, however i feel we need to be more united, but its long, im not saying a 32 socialist republican because that is something the majority must want, the majority wanted peace but they should have had options on what the peace consisted of, or even a more public consultation, we need to address the concerns of all, whether its the traditional unionist voice, the dissident loyalist or republican "paramilitaries", or eirigi ir RNU or who ever we need consultation from everyone, as the majority of these groups want peace, they just dont want the good friday agreement.

I think its fair to say that weve all faced cr*p in the north at different times, losing family members, friends etc, i dont think we have served anyone of these people who died in the conflict any justice by creating a situation where history will be allowed to repeat itself, and most around belfast and derry will tell you it is. People in belfast continue to vote sinn fein, while sympathising with the ONH, it doesnt make sense but its how the provos grew, no one wants that situation again, as far as i know not even the ONH.

But lets put the issue to bed now as im one of the ones to blame my own thread i went of arguing with someone on, the irish people have suffered for hundreds of years, no one more than the other, arguing is just disgracing the memory of the dead.

The sad history of N.Ireland where everyone was mixed up with everyone else.

Lenny Murphy came out of prison, was considered to be a loose cannon by the uVF, who set him up for the provies to kill, probably with the help of the Branch. What a country.

Years later Billy Wright was practically "interned" and then taken out with the help of Mo Mowlan by the look of things.

"The Dirty War", "Black Ops", it all happened and still does.

Once did an entire thesis on the question about state violence. Basically it all came down to one thing. "Terrorists" don't care about their victims so shoot to kill and all the rest is justified, was one side. The other side, adopted by me is "but terrorists are terrorists. The state are supposed to be the civilising factor in society".

As Jayo says it is happening all over the world, condoned by governments. It is not just the Special Branch who are a threat to ordinary people in Europe today.

as for N.Ireland, has moved on enormously in the last ten years. The only people still concerned about parades and all that nonsense is the "have nots" who never had anything, and never will. You would wonder how come these people, used as cannon fodder by both sides, the "lumpen proletariat" described by Marx, never caught on as the like of Davy Irvine and davy adams did.

In Derry, where parades started much of the trouble, a City with a monstrous catholic majority, the parade has been turned into a "fun day" for the family. The "kick the pope bands" obviously do not go because there is no one to annoy.

You can stop trouble by stealth you know. Always said if the people who used to live in the lower Ormeau Road and been out waving union jacks they would have stopped the march years ago without recourse to trouble.

I know some peace line areas are still "tender" but much of that is stirred up and kept alive by dispossessed dreamers.

patrique wrote:The sad history of N.Ireland where everyone was mixed up with everyone else.

Lenny Murphy came out of prison, was considered to be a loose cannon by the uVF, who set him up for the provies to kill, probably with the help of the Branch. What a country.

Years later Billy Wright was practically "interned" and then taken out with the help of Mo Mowlan by the look of things.

"The Dirty War", "Black Ops", it all happened and still does.

Once did an entire thesis on the question about state violence. Basically it all came down to one thing. "Terrorists" don't care about their victims so shoot to kill and all the rest is justified, was one side. The other side, adopted by me is "but terrorists are terrorists. The state are supposed to be the civilising factor in society".

As Jayo says it is happening all over the world, condoned by governments. It is not just the Special Branch who are a threat to ordinary people in Europe today.

as for N.Ireland, has moved on enormously in the last ten years. The only people still concerned about parades and all that nonsense is the "have nots" who never had anything, and never will. You would wonder how come these people, used as cannon fodder by both sides, the "lumpen proletariat" described by Marx, never caught on as the like of Davy Irvine and davy adams did.

In Derry, where parades started much of the trouble, a City with a monstrous catholic majority, the parade has been turned into a "fun day" for the family. The "kick the pope bands" obviously do not go because there is no one to annoy.

You can stop trouble by stealth you know. Always said if the people who used to live in the lower Ormeau Road and been out waving union jacks they would have stopped the march years ago without recourse to trouble.

I know some peace line areas are still "tender" but much of that is stirred up and kept alive by dispossessed dreamers.

I agree with much of what you said pat, and i think your the only person to address the colusion issue.

Although, i dont think we can dismiss those who disagree with the GFA as dreamers, we must learn their concerns to dismiss them will be a silly mistake in the long run, thats all ill say to you as i dont want to get into a slanging match with a fellow saff, i admire the courage of SF, DUP and the rest for what theyve done, but the GFA should have simply been a starting block to achieving the ultimate shared future for every one even those who disagreed.

One issue which is baffling with regards the 'cold cases' etc. is that the greatest mass murder since the foundation of the state was and still is swept under the carpet.(Dublin bombings 1974) Got to know a relative of one of the victims a good few years ago and the frustration they faced over the years was disgraceful. Remember the Dept. of Justice shredded files, Gardai dropped all investigations after 6 WEEKs, British Government refused to co-operate with enquiry. Collusion in a grand scale, obviously but in the present climate there is no reason why all should not come clean.

Real Kerry Fan wrote:One issue which is baffling with regards the 'cold cases' etc. is that the greatest mass murder since the foundation of the state was and still is swept under the carpet.(Dublin bombings 1974) Got to know a relative of one of the victims a good few years ago and the frustration they faced over the years was disgraceful. Remember the Dept. of Justice shredded files, Gardai dropped all investigations after 6 WEEKs, British Government refused to co-operate with enquiry. Collusion in a grand scale, obviously but in the present climate there is no reason why all should not come clean.

Are you having a laugh?

Theyve apologised for two incidents in the last forty years, in which they are very clearly guilty of collusion if not direct murder, they also have many more cases or direct murder and collusion to at least apologise for, murdering Aidan McAnespie, the controlling of loyalist murder squads, pat finuncance, rosemary nelson, ballymurphy masacere, to name but a few, they wont do anything in the current climate because it will mean peoples blood will boil, look at mcgurks bar, that plonker baggot doesnt have a clue about the case but doesnt accept police collusion even though an independent body found evidence of such.

Still out there they are. And killing their own. Mindless, gutless and clueless.

Jayo Cluxton wrote:Still out there they are. And killing their own. Mindless, gutless and clueless.

Somebody posted a URL link to a Republican forum over on another GAA website. So I clicked into it and read all 50+ pages of comments. Most of those posting were nothing short of lunatics, and there are appeared to be dozens and dozens of said lunatics venerating the volunteers involved and taking comfort in the guard's killing yesterday.

Quite sad really in one sense that somebody so young dies, no matter what the circumstances but to know that the people responsible think this is a victory. And their followers protest their innocence - it's the fault of the UK they say for not moving out? Is this serious?

I see uneducated people everywhere I go but these would be up there as the most uneducated I have ever came across. Makes me wonder if I should condemn them or just feel sorry for them. I will choose to condemn - in this age, being this uneducated should be a crime.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Presumably this is the website that Loyal is talking about.. I hope it's not a problem posting the link, it makes for interesting reading.

RIP to the young man killed, terrible inexcusable actions by these terrorists.

Edit: Reading that thread and their attempts to justify cold blooded murder of an innocent man is genuinely sickening..

I'm absolutely disgusted at what happened in Omagh, I took part in the half marathon in the town yesterday, It was a fantastic event with people from all over the North taking part. All the participants in the run past very close by to where this incident took place. The feel good factor and togetherness of everyone that took part in the half marathon was wiped away with the mindless action of a small rump of wasters who are completely stuck in a time warp. My thoughts and prayers are with this young mans family at this awful time and as for those who participate or support this type of action Get off our backs, we've had enough!

Sad day god knows what these people think....

RIP Ronan..

mugsys_barber wrote:The feel good factor and togetherness of everyone that took part in the half marathon was wiped away

Togetherness will be the thing that beats these savages - all they want to do is create mistrust and divides.

Jayo Cluxton wrote:

mugsys_barber wrote:The feel good factor and togetherness of everyone that took part in the half marathon was wiped away

Togetherness will be the thing that beats these savages - all they want to do is create mistrust and divides.

Lets hope so Jayo - A completely pointless waste of a young life

mugsys_barber wrote:

Jayo Cluxton wrote:

mugsys_barber wrote:The feel good factor and togetherness of everyone that took part in the half marathon was wiped away

Togetherness will be the thing that beats these savages - all they want to do is create mistrust and divides.

Lets hope so Jayo - A completely pointless waste of a young life

just what was the point of this callous murder of such a young man - what has it achieved, god help the lads mother and family i cant even begin to imagine what they are going through.

Lets home some good comes from it in terms of uniting the people of the province together against these mindless scumbags. I hope the hoor that carried this out dies a slow and painful death some day soon

I want to get this right so as to not insult the family of this young fella.

I would first say its extremely sad what has happened in omagh, no one likes to glorify death as death achieves nothing.

I will not set about defending those who carried out the attack either, i dont know their background, ive an idea what their mind set is though. As for what sort of "scum bag" does this, they are doing what they know, car bombs are the tradition of the provos and even of the michael collins regime, they in someway feel they are acting in the same manor.

I would say to people on here to take notice of the press repeatedly running these groups down as "scum" and "micro groups", the intelligence on these groups is minimal, the british have conceded this, initially the press said after the GFA signing and after 2007 that these groups where going no where they were "infiltrated to the highest level" it was all lies and it was all about ignoring a dangerous situation. All this talk is doing, is angering people we know very little about other than they seem to be getting better at what they do, however there are political groups out there some connected to these groups others not connected to them, and they need to sit with these people and talk to them, these groups continue to grow, they grow weekly, in the wake of the Deputy first ministers comments about traitors to ireland, one of the dissident political groups grew by treble almost, imagine how many went towards a military group.

We need to work out what will stop the growth in the violent groups, because one thing you can be sure of is if these groups grow, the loyalist dissidents grow also, this to me is clear as day that a rot is in the current system and needs to be removed, simply jailing these people will only spare on others, why not try and find a system which will accommodate a situation where there will be no support for violence? But for only political opposition.

Like i say a young life lost is a young irish life lost and very sad, the difference being the majority of republicans on the ground will not bat an eye lid at this, that isn't the problem, the problem lies with how we handle these situations.

We need to find peace by encouraging politics amongst dissident loyalists and republicans, otherwise the rot will continue.

Very sad times indeed, if we are to handle this situation badly it will only lead to more joining these groups and more violence, we need to keep working on finding the full peace solution and building on the blocks in place, the GFA was never going to be the roof on the house, it was only ever going to be the foundations.

North Side Gael wrote:....there are political groups out there some connected to these groups others not connected to them, and they need to sit with these people and talk to them....

....simply jailing these people will only spare on others, why not try and find a system which will accommodate a situation where there will be no support for violence? But for only political opposition....

NSG, there is dialogue, and there is a political process for people to advance change. It has been going on for over a decade now. Some people just don't want to talk.

TC no disrespect but that attitude will fuel this sort of action.

We can sit back and ignore this or we can actually go out and try to engage with them.

The political groups are in Dialogue with SF on a regular basis on the street, we need to find a way of wheeling them into politics proper, even if it means not taking seats or what ever, we need to find a way to get the energy of anyone feeling disenfranchised by the good friday agreement to political energy and not military.

If we ignore this we will eventually create a situation where support for this action gets so big we will be put back 20 years!

Just by ignoring them or saying you need to go to stormont is not enough, we need to engage with the politically minded ones and get them to act politically.

I was in SF until 2006 i talked to dissidents regulary, they would say we (SF) where wrong etc, we would ask what is the alternative, some would say they dont know but we need to spend longer working on it, others well...............................................either way, maybe its the ones with the political minds we need to work with.
Ill tell you this now, if you think they will listen to SF media ramblings, your wrong, SF tried to force these people into accepting peace by kidnapping, torturing, beating and even murdering members of these groups, sf words normally anger these people even more, a collective group needs to engage with these people.

Im not claiming to have the answers but im saying we need to start looking at how we can find the answers, otherwise this relatively normal society of the last year or two will disappear very quickly.

An example of these people talking is this, last year a deal was struck on the status of "political prisoners", the deal was adhered to for a short while then the British introduced full body strip searches, if your in jail and youve never seen a jury or your in jail for beating a drug dealer and your getting this treatment what would your family and friends do? I know exactly what they would do, start actively supporting your campaign or alleged campaign in many cases.

These people are in contact with people, we need to find out what is what is on the table, what is their concerns, why do they feel the need to carry on violent campaigns, what can be done to prevent the violence etc etc, the behind closed doors stuff just isnt working, we need proper dialogue.

What groups of dissidents are active in the north NSG..Dissidents groups that are active in the Dublin area are nothing more than criminals..Making a good living from it

Sorry NSG, you are a great man for problems, and not for solutions. You announced on this very thread that you were an active dissident, so let's hear what it is that you want.

You say that these people have political groups representing them - well let those groups stand for election and engage in dialogue with other republicans and unionists alike. It is not enough to say that they are misunderstood and have no voice.

At the end of the day, we know what they are looking for, and it is nothing to do with the abolishment of strip searches in prison. It is a full and immediate British withdrawal from the North, and that is not going to happen in the next 10 years (someday, probably, but not for a while). Hence, they don't want to talk, because they won't get what they want.

I dont really want to go into the ins and outs of groups on here but i will talk of the political groups:

Ill give you an honest and nothing incriminating run down of each political group. I can only give opinion.

IRSP - former apparent political wing of the INLA, recently some press sources have suggested that the INLA are involved in stuff, i seriously doubt this, given that most INLA members are interested in politics now, but disagree with the GFA, they are running in the elections for council seats, i have a feeling this is where the bad press is coming from.

32 County Sovereignty movement, apparent political wing of the RIRA, very active in terms of protests and such actions, not strong in belfast but very strong around Derry City

Republican Sinn Fein, a group that to be honest looks like its fading away but they seem to have writing on a lot of walls, at a protest with them once, membership seemed to be aging and unconnected to each other, has been linked to the continuity IRA by media.

Republican Network for Unity, recently linked with ONH, however they have denied this link, very active in belfast, derry, dublin and in Britain and America, protest is their main avenue of activism, however they engaged with community groups on anti social behaviour, parades, housing and other issues, im a former member of this political group, they have an ethos to help bring about a unified political dissident approach, to date this has failed.

Eirigi, an extremely active dublin based group, very active in belfast, held a big easter rally in belfast last year and im sure will do the same again this year, no connection or media connection to any other groups, running in the council elections in West Belfast only, seem to have be an attraction to young socialists, been involved in protests which have got good and bad feed back depending on how you look at it, not sure of their community involvement.

I dont mean to insult any groups so if your reading this and ive said something wrong or not correct let me know and ill change it.

As for armed groupings, the ONH seem highly intelligent and operate similar to that of the provos, from what i have seen in their actions they have claimed, support for them is growing due to their punnishment beatings and so on, which the University of ulster has said support is growing fast for, as for the other military groups, we see very little of them the RIRA and CIRA, CIRA killed a psni officer in craigavon about two year ago. This info is taking from press sources.

Me personally, i dont deny im a dissenting republican i never have, however yes i want a full british withdrawal but i also think there is more simple things out there even in the good friday agreement that could have had a better influence on how things went, read the agreement and tell me it was fully introduced if your supporter of it, we all know things could be better, we have an agreement that meant our society was to be normalised fair enough, but was the state to be normalised as a british one or irish one?

Like i said im only a dissenting voice since 2006 which means at one stage i was on what you would describe as the right side, i understand as do many dissenting republicans the need for dialogue but should proper dialogue be support would not be growing for dissidents it would be withering. The agreement never made sense, with unionists declaring it strengthened the union and republicans saying it was victory in their fight to achieve a step closer to a united ireland.

I believe peace should have been declared and a starting block put in place ie 2/3 scenario agreements being put to the public for vote, then this starting block could have been built on, to include others who originally disagreed.

Like i say, im not supporting these actions TC, but i do feel we can do more to prevent them. As for representing the military groups, one of the groups has no connection and is one of the biggest groups, it is also the most active. Not all dissidents are mindless thugs in favour of violence, the majority want peace, some of the political groups ive mentioned do want to talk, SF was always told they didnt want to talk because they wanted the undo-able (a united ireland), but talking got them to where they are, mayve your dialogue could be a bit more expansive, a bit more flexible?

I disagree with the GFA, in the same way i disagree with the course of action that lead to the death or Ronan Kerr, but as you are clearly trying to point out, society doesnt want to hear if you disagree, or how many of you there actually is, this for me is a recipe for disaster and what happened to the family in omagh is a disaster. People will get fustrated im not one of them fortunately, more and more will get frustrated if we as a society dont accept that we need to work harder to achieve peace, simply jailing these people or ignoring people is not working hard, its trying to cover a crack.

Thomas Clarke wrote:Sorry NSG, you are a great man for problems, and not for solutions. You announced on this very thread that you were an active dissident, so let's hear what it is that you want.

You say that these people have political groups representing them - well let those groups stand for election and engage in dialogue with other republicans and unionists alike. It is not enough to say that they are misunderstood and have no voice.

At the end of the day, we know what they are looking for, and it is nothing to do with the abolishment of strip searches in prison. It is a full and immediate British withdrawal from the North, and that is not going to happen in the next 10 years (someday, probably, but not for a while). Hence, they don't want to talk, because they won't get what they want.

As for your im a great man for problems and not solutions, is that the old "dont bring it up unless youve got the answer scenario?"

Why? we need to know our faults so we can fix them, we wont always have the answer straight away but we will have the problem to find a solution for will we not?