Dublin 91-95 - true greats ...

Though they only won one All Ireland, the unlucky Dublin team of the early to mid-90s must surely go down as one of the greatest in recent times. They won 4 Leinsters in a row - when Leinsters were meaningful and Meath had a team - and won two National Leagues - the last Dublin team to do so.

The team will forever be remembered for the epic 4 game saga v Meath in 1991 which could easily have gone Dublin's way in each of the games. The following year the team did not do themselves justice in the final and lost to Donegal - in truth they may have been a little complacement. In 1993 they lost a semi final by the minimum margin to eventual champions Derry. Again they were a little unlucky here. 1994 saw more Final pain with a defeat to a very good Down side by just two points. Eventually in 1995 the Dubs reached the holy grail with a deserved Final win over Tyrone. Sam was finally home.

This team ran smack into the Ulster revolution - when the best of footballing sides emerged from the province - Down, Derry, Donegal. Stylish teams who played some lovely stuff. And at a time when there were also strong Galway, Cork, Meath, Kildare and even Mayo teams. To compete in the Meath epic, then three All Irelands in four years and one semi - losing by a point twice and two points once, to win two NFLs and four Leinsters makes this team out to be something special.

Even nearly twenty years later the names trip off the tongue - legends everyhwere. John O'Leary, Dermo Deasy, a half back line to die for - pick from Heery, Barr, Curran and Deegan, throw in Bealo and Jacko, Giller, Stynesy, then the cream of forwards - Clarkie, Charlie, Vinny, Jayo and Dessie. A truly great side. If they were around in the Noughties they probably would have won 4/5 Sams with the back door and the lack of quality around.

Still - a great bunch of players.

Jayo Cluxton wrote: They won 4 Leinsters in a row - when Leinsters were meaningful and Meath had a team

Surely you mean when Meath didn't have a team?

Meath dominated Leinster with a fine side in the late 80s. That side then got old and lost to the likes of Cork (who, when in their prime, they had proven their dominance over) and Down. The great team of the '80s was on its last legs in the early 90s, before the Royals returned with a completely new side (apart from Martin O'Connell & Colm Coyle) in 1996. The Dubs, as they might say in the farms of Meath, made hay while the sun shone.

Not at all. Meath had good teams then - though the 4 game epic probably cost them Sam in 1991. They blended youth and experience then and though we whacked them by 10 points in a wet Leinster final in 1995 - they came back in 1996 for revenge. Meath didn't do poor sides at that time (like they do now) - Kildare had good sides then too.

Jayo Cluxton wrote:Not at all. Meath had good teams then - though the 4 game epic probably cost them Sam in 1991. They blended youth and experience then and though we whacked them by 10 points in a wet Leinster final in 1995 - they came back in 1996 for revenge. Meath didn't do poor sides at that time (like they do now) - Kildare had good sides then too.

When Meath won in 1996 they had the following U21s on the side: Trevor Giles, Darren Fay, Paddy Reynolds, Barry Callaghan, Mark O'Reilly, and that is off the top of my head. It was a completely revamped team, in response to the pasting they received the year before. What the Dubs hammered in 1995 was a side in transition.

And not too sure what good Galway and Mayo sides you are thinking of between 1991-95, as they were both in division 3&4 for most of that period (I know this, as Tyrone played them regularly back then). Perhaps you are thinking of the great Mayo side that lost to Cork by 25 odd points in 1993?

Let's also mention the sides that Dublin beat on their way to those finals, Clare (1992 - after a real struggle) and Leitrim (1994). With due respect to both of those sides, the Dubs got lucky with the draws in those years although, in fairness, they would probably have beaten anything that came out of Munster or Connaught at that time. The Tyrone side that they beat in 1995 was not a good side.

So, for me, Dublin 1991-95 - an honest bunch with very average forwards and a great half-back line, who played exciting football, were involved in some great games, and got the one all-ireland that they deserved.

I personally think that dublin team was brilliant, played exciting football and a bit more genuiness than dub teams that came after them, to say the meath team wasnt great is ridiculous, and as jc said the kildare team of the period was also strong.

I remember listening to quite a few tyrone people that year a judging by the amount of tickets sold many will disagree with your notion that, that was a poor tyrone team, had they won it theyd be great.

The Dublin team of the early 90s will go down as the second best Dublin team, i've had the pleasure of watching,What made them greats is that they strove for an All -Ireland after coming so close in the previous years.To win Leinster back then was so tough. kildare/meath was never an easy game.I remember beating Meath by a point in 93-94..before finally shaking them of our tail in 95..If you look back at 91-95 we were so close but yet so far from winning more than 1..But you would have to say the teams that beat us,went and won their All-Ireland and that alone must show you what level this team was playing at....As time goes by the stature of this team grows and its a teastment of this team that so many are still involved in development squads in Dublin....

Thomas Clarke wrote:

Jayo Cluxton wrote:Not at all. Meath had good teams then - though the 4 game epic probably cost them Sam in 1991. They blended youth and experience then and though we whacked them by 10 points in a wet Leinster final in 1995 - they came back in 1996 for revenge. Meath didn't do poor sides at that time (like they do now) - Kildare had good sides then too.

When Meath won in 1996 they had the following U21s on the side: Trevor Giles, Darren Fay, Paddy Reynolds, Barry Callaghan, Mark O'Reilly, and that is off the top of my head. It was a completely revamped team, in response to the pasting they received the year before. What the Dubs hammered in 1995 was a side in transition.

And not too sure what good Galway and Mayo sides you are thinking of between 1991-95, as they were both in division 3&4 for most of that period (I know this, as Tyrone played them regularly back then). Perhaps you are thinking of the great Mayo side that lost to Cork by 25 odd points in 1993?

Let's also mention the sides that Dublin beat on their way to those finals, Clare (1992 - after a real struggle) and Leitrim (1994). With due respect to both of those sides, the Dubs got lucky with the draws in those years although, in fairness, they would probably have beaten anything that came out of Munster or Connaught at that time. The Tyrone side that they beat in 1995 was not a good side.

So, for me, Dublin 1991-95 - an honest bunch with very average forwards and a great half-back line, who played exciting football, were involved in some great games, and got the one all-ireland that they deserved.

Clare and Leitrim were champions of their respected proviences..What can't you show other counties some respect ..

North Side Gael wrote:I personally think that dublin team was brilliant, played exciting football and a bit more genuiness than dub teams that came after them, to say the meath team wasnt great is ridiculous, and as jc said the kildare team of the period was also strong.

I remember listening to quite a few tyrone people that year a judging by the amount of tickets sold many will disagree with your notion that, that was a poor tyrone team, had they won it theyd be great.

Not too sure what you mean by 'had they won it they'd be great'??

And how is it ridiculous to say that that wasn't a great Meath side? They were superb in the late 80s, but the defeats in 89-91 showed that they were on the slide. I was at the all of Meath's all-ireland final matches between 87-91 (and 96 & 99 for that matter), and they were a totallydifferent side at the end of that stretch than they had been at the start. The 1988 replay against Cork was an incredible example of one side proving complete dominance over the other, although the scoreboard was fairly close in the end. By 1990, Meath had slipped, and Cork took revenge, but I would never rate that Cork side as highly as their Meath rivals when both were at their best.

The Meath side that won in 1987/8 was not a young side, and they were well over the hill by the early 90s. From 1988, only 2 players remained when they won again in 1996, and both of those were retired 12 months later.

Now, tell me how any county can have a top side in 1988, a completely different and also fine side in 1996, yet not have gone through a period of transition in between?

Leitrim and Clare both WON their respective Provincial Championships - worthy champions I think. And I wouldn't read anything into League positioning for C'ship form at all.

That Dublin side lost just 4 Championship games in 5 years (all fatal!) and unfortunately had only one Sam to show for it. If you look at the 7 years between 2003-09 when Kerry (4) and Tyrone (3) shared Sam between them, Tyrone actually lost 8 Championship games in the 7 years!!!! Kerry lost 6.

A devaluation of the Celtic Cross currency perhaps .....

Thomas Clarke wrote:[Now, tell me how any county can have a top side in 1988, a completely different and also fine side in 1996, yet not have gone through a period of transition in between?

Kerry do it all the time ....

mullins wrote: Clare and Leitrim were champions of their respected proviences..What can't you show other counties some respect ..

And deservedly so - Clare were much better than Kerry in 1992 (I watched that game again a few months back), and Leitrim's victory was remarkable, considering their pool of resources. But it doesn't change the fact that Galway, Mayo, Kerry and, to a much lesser extent, Cork were not particularly strong at that time.

Jayo Cluxton wrote:

Thomas Clarke wrote:[Now, tell me how any county can have a top side in 1988, a completely different and also fine side in 1996, yet not have gone through a period of transition in between?

Kerry do it all the time ....

Jc great point i was going to say the same myself..Kerry player finishes is career with 2/3 All-Ireland would be classed as a failure..Kerry players with 6-8 All -Irelands good players..They set the bar high

Thomas Clarke wrote:Let's also mention the sides that Dublin beat on their way to those finals, Clare (1992 - after a real struggle) and Leitrim (1994). With due respect to both of those sides, the Dubs got lucky with the draws in those years although,

That's what you said - don't go back pedalling now TC - and Clare was no struggle in truth. God if someone said the Dubs team of the 70s only beat the Ulster Champs in the semi or final (with due respect) there'd be war here!!

mullins wrote:

Jayo Cluxton wrote:

Thomas Clarke wrote:[Now, tell me how any county can have a top side in 1988, a completely different and also fine side in 1996, yet not have gone through a period of transition in between?

Kerry do it all the time ....

Jc great point i was going to say the same myself..Kerry player finishes is career with 2/3 All-Ireland would be classed as a failure..Kerry players with 6-8 All -Irelands good players..They set the bar high

How many did the lads between 1987 and 1996 finish with? A period of transition for the Kingdom.

And as for what I said about Clare and Leitrim, I stand over it completely. Great achievements for both those counties winning provincial titles, however strong their provinces where at the time, but those were easier semi-finals for Dublin than drawing Donegal or Down, as both finals ultimately proved.

Thomas Clarke wrote:

North Side Gael wrote:I personally think that dublin team was brilliant, played exciting football and a bit more genuiness than dub teams that came after them, to say the meath team wasnt great is ridiculous, and as jc said the kildare team of the period was also strong.

I remember listening to quite a few tyrone people that year a judging by the amount of tickets sold many will disagree with your notion that, that was a poor tyrone team, had they won it theyd be great.

Not too sure what you mean by 'had they won it they'd be great'??

And how is it ridiculous to say that that wasn't a great Meath side? They were superb in the late 80s, but the defeats in 89-91 showed that they were on the slide. I was at the all of Meath's all-ireland final matches between 87-91 (and 96 & 99 for that matter), and they were a totallydifferent side at the end of that stretch than they had been at the start. The 1988 replay against Cork was an incredible example of one side proving complete dominance over the other, although the scoreboard was fairly close in the end. By 1990, Meath had slipped, and Cork took revenge, but I would never rate that Cork side as highly as their Meath rivals when both were at their best.

The Meath side that won in 1987/8 was not a young side, and they were well over the hill by the early 90s. From 1988, only 2 players remained when they won again in 1996, and both of those were retired 12 months later.

Now, tell me how any county can have a top side in 1988, a completely different and also fine side in 1996, yet not have gone through a period of transition in between?

All im saying is tyrone play it down if they lose as if they say, doesnt matter we knew wed lose, when they win they are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

As for Lietrim and Clare you can only beat whats in front of you these teams had come through provinces which have great footballing counties.

As for the transition periiod was it not tyrone in 1995 who went on about conveyor belts of talent? That Meath team should probably have beaten down in 91 and should have beaten the dubs a couple of times after that as well, whether they where in "transition" or not isnt the question they where a dominant force at the time which the dubs had to overcome. I truly believe down to be the team of the early nineties, some will say derry, but as the years moved on Tyrone started to show signs of coming good, your dismissing them as poor players, winning an ulster in them days was a lot harder than winning one 5/6 years ago.

North Side Gael wrote: All im saying is tyrone play it down if they lose as if they say, doesnt matter we knew wed lose, when they win they are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

As for Lietrim and Clare you can only beat whats in front of you these teams had come through provinces which have great footballing counties.

As for the transition periiod was it not tyrone in 1995 who went on about conveyor belts of talent? That Meath team should probably have beaten down in 91 and should have beaten the dubs a couple of times after that as well, whether they where in "transition" or not isnt the question they where a dominant force at the time which the dubs had to overcome. I truly believe down to be the team of the early nineties, some will say derry, but as the years moved on Tyrone started to show signs of coming good, your dismissing them as poor players, winning an ulster in them days was a lot harder than winning one 5/6 years ago.

NSG, you might call it playing things down, whereas I look at it as being honest. Seriously, how can a Tyrone man win? If we praise our teams we are arrogant, if we admit that some of our sides/players weren't great then we are accused of downplaying things. Here's a thought - perhaps I am being honest, and calling things as I see them.

I agree with you that Down were the best side in the early 90s, followed by Derry and Donegal. I would put Dublin behind those 3, so perhaps that explains why I don't rate them as a great side. Not everyone can be great, at least not the way I view sports. If Dublin 91-95 were great, what does that make Kerry 78-81? Super-great?

I've paid that Dublin side a lot of compliments, but I don't think they were a special team. Dublin in the 70s were. Dublin in the 50s were. But for me, not in the 90s.

Thomas Clarke wrote:And as for what I said about Clare and Leitrim, I stand over it completely. Great achievements for both those counties winning provincial titles, however strong their provinces where at the time, but those were easier semi-finals for Dublin than drawing Donegal or Down, as both finals ultimately proved.

Well them was the good old days when you had to win your province and there was a 3 year cycle ie Leinster would play Ulster, Connaught, Munster in semis in succeeding years. Hardly Dublin's fault.

For all the 'great credit' to Clare and Leitrim type-speak TC you have just dissed them again above by suggesting that Donegal and Down would have beaten them if they played them in their semis. The finals may not have even as they were if Leitrim or Clare had beaten the Ulster teams had they been drawn that way but this is not even considered by you - just dismissed. Talking out of both sides of your mouth here mate.

Jayo Cluxton wrote:
For all the 'great credit' to Clare and Leitrim type-speak TC you have just dissed them again above by suggesting that Donegal and Down would have beaten them if they played them in their semis. The finals may not have even as they were if Leitrim or Clare had beaten the Ulster teams had they been drawn that way but this is not even considered by you - just dismissed. Talking out of both sides of your mouth here mate.

You've lost me completely. Are you saying that Leitrim or Clare, both of whom Dublin beat, would have beaten Down or Donegal, both of whom beat Dublin and won the all-ireland? Or are you somehow saying that Clare/Leitrim was a tougher draw for Dublin in a semi than Down or Donegal would have been?

Or perhaps you are really trying to make out that I am being disrespectful to Clare & Leitrim, in some attempt to gain support for your argument, just because I used them to counter your conjection that Dublin faced a string of strong sides in that era?

And you think it is me talking nonsense? Time to let it go Jayo, if this is what you are reduced to.

No TC - you are automatically assuming that the Ulster sides would have beaten Clare or Leitrim in a semi - don't be trying to muddy the waters here. It does not matter that Dublin beat them both and then lost to Down and Donegal - you are making an assumption that Clare or Leitrim would not have made the Final if they had drawn the Ulster teams. Its simple really - I'm not reduced to anything.

What about the point that Tyrone lost 8 Championship games in 7 seasons yet won 3 All Irelands? You never commented on that.

Jayo Cluxton wrote: What about the point that Tyrone lost 8 Championship games in 7 seasons yet won 3 All Irelands? You never commented on that.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realise that this thread was about Tyrone? My only comment on that, is that your maths are incorrect.

Anyway, back to the Dubs, as I still don't see what relevance Tyrone has to this debate, unless of couse the great JC has been reduced to that tried and tested HS technique of abusing the county of any poster who dares disagree with you. It is amazing what a sensitive bunch the Dubs are - perhaps the great Carl Jung could identify a cause for such neuroticism.

It is a poor state of affairs when a man can pay compliments to great Dublin sides of the 50s and 70s, and say some nice things about their side of the 90s (I even said that they deserved their all-ireland), yet he gets castigated because he dares to say that he didn't rate the 90s vintage as 'great'.

Jaysus TC me ould flower - you get very defensive and prickly when you are picked up and legitimately questioned about things you post! And suddenly it appears that all Dubs are neurotic???

One of the strong points I make is that the Dublin 91-95 side lost just 4 Champo games in 5 years (three of them by a point or two) yet won only one Sam - and Tyrone lost 8 Championship games in 7 years and won 3 Sams. Is this not a valid statistic to raise when considering how good the team was?

Don't see much castigating here - just picking up on some points made and questioning them. If that makes me neurotic I'll just go and get me valium.

Thomas Clarke (Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:45 pm) wrote:

mullins wrote:

Jayo Cluxton wrote:

Thomas Clarke wrote:[Now, tell me how any county can have a top side in 1988, a completely different and also fine side in 1996, yet not have gone through a period of transition in between?

Kerry do it all the time ....

Jc great point i was going to say the same myself..Kerry player finishes is career with 2/3 All-Ireland would be classed as a failure..Kerry players with 6-8 All -Irelands good players..They set the bar high

How many did the lads between 1987 and 1996 finish with? A period of transition for the Kingdom.

And as for what I said about Clare and Leitrim, I stand over it completely. Great achievements for both those counties winning provincial titles, however strong their provinces where at the time, but those were easier semi-finals for Dublin than drawing Donegal or Down, as both finals ultimately proved.

TC with you arguement that Clare /Leitrim were weak which helped Dublin reach a final,Would the counter arguement be Tyrone 08 had an easy run to sam..Beating Westmeath an average Dublin side/not my words and Wexford side that lost a Leinster final by double scores..Like NSG you can only beat the team you play..sometimes

mullins wrote:
TC with you arguement that Clare /Leitrim were weak which helped Dublin reach a final,Would the counter arguement be Tyrone 08 had an easy run to sam..Beating Westmeath an average Dublin side/not my words and Wexford side that lost a Leinster final by double scores..

Yes, in the main, that would be true to say. I guess the only difference was that Tyrone won their final.

Thomas Clarke (Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:35 pm) wrote:

mullins wrote:
TC with you arguement that Clare /Leitrim were weak which helped Dublin reach a final,Would the counter arguement be Tyrone 08 had an easy run to sam..Beating Westmeath an average Dublin side/not my words and Wexford side that lost a Leinster final by double scores..

Yes, in the main, that would be true to say. I guess the only difference was that Tyrone won their final.

I told the wexford fans leaving croker, that they would reach the final,i was nearly wight

Dublin ran into two Ulster revolutions in 10 years