Football is finished

OMAR wrote:Might need to get Emmet and a chalkboard for this.

Talking of which (chalkboards, not Emmet), any update GF?

No update on the chalkboards yet, not getting enough time off (aside from my Olympic trip) to examine it properly this summer but will go all out to do one for the Final (I'll get time off then).

As for the systems over skill argument. Seeing as folk hate the idea of 'Gaelic Basketball', which incidentally can be played in Portarlington and Seapoint*, I thought I'd take a leaf out of Basketball's debate on it. The Princeton offence was seen as a game-plan lesser teams could use to thrive but it was found over time that for it to truly work you needed the players to do it. I gave a talk about tactics to Kilmacud Crokes a few weeks back and the basic crux was that any system should reflect the skills of the players at your disposal.

*I have seen grass fields with Basketball hoops at both these locations. The name my buddy Mo coined for it was 'Grassketball'.

emmetryan wrote:I gave a talk about tactics to Kilmacud Crokes a few weeks back and the basic crux was that any system should reflect the skills of the players at your disposal.

I 100% agree with this. Players should always dictate the system, and not the other way round.

How did you get Olympic tickets Emmet, or are they press passes?

Through the lottery and general sale. Women's Boxing semis and final, so yes I am really hoping she wins her quarter!

emmetryan wrote:Through the lottery and general sale. Women's Boxing semis and final, so yes I am really hoping she wins her quarter!

Ah, that explains it - I thought you were heading over to watch some sport!

I don't know a single person who has anything for swimming/athletics finals.

The one I was willing to go all in on was the Men's Basketball Gold Medal game but "all-in" was less than the £425 sterling I'd have needed to pony up for the only ones available.

emmetryan wrote:The one I was willing to go all in on was the Men's Basketball Gold Medal game but "all-in" was less than the £425 sterling I'd have needed to pony up for the only ones available.

Having applied multiple tickets for 20 events and won nothing in the lottery, the only decision I had to make was 2 x £750 for the final Saturday of athletics (Men's 5000m, Men's 4x100m relay). Needless to say, my thought process only lasted long enough to catch a grip of my senses!

Thomas Clarke wrote:

emmetryan wrote:Through the lottery and general sale. Women's Boxing semis and final, so yes I am really hoping she wins her quarter!

Ah, that explains it - I thought you were heading over to watch some sport!

I don't know a single person who has anything for swimming/athletics finals.

I got one for the monday x6th - 400m/400m hurdles and womens steelpechase

OMAR wrote:

Thomas Clarke wrote:

emmetryan wrote:Through the lottery and general sale. Women's Boxing semis and final, so yes I am really hoping she wins her quarter!

Ah, that explains it - I thought you were heading over to watch some sport!

I don't know a single person who has anything for swimming/athletics finals.

I got one for the monday x6th - 400m/400m hurdles and womens steelpechase

The Devil looks after his own

TC - I'd be a prudent man meself (not like Jonsmith or Boxty though) but its a once in a lifetime opportunity. And she'd have forgiven you by Christmas ...

Parouisa wrote:TC - I'd be a prudent man meself (not like Jonsmith or Boxty though) but its a once in a lifetime opportunity. And she'd have forgiven you by Christmas ...

Depends who he took

Thomas Clarke wrote:The Devil looks after HER own

Oh and I fixed that btw ....

Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.....The 1978 final was on TG4 there tonight.....Dreadful stuff.....
Lots of long kicking all right, most of it woeful. What clean catching was achieved was done by Sean Walsh. Tackling deplorable....

Patterns and systems will evolve. However the fear of losing has become the dominant factor. The drive toward super-fitness is detracting from the skills ie: the long ball forward into space and the courage to take the handy point from 35/40 yards when it's there for the taking.

The current batch of youngish managers will realise this sooner or later. We're in a state of transition. A courageous manager will set the template for the future. This won't be Kieran McGeeney, whose claim to fame is a sort of 4 mile chaser, when what's wanted is a Champion Hurdler with style, panache and an inner self confidence a'la Istabraq......

Jim McGuinness may yet be the Messiah.....

Well if you even look at what Crossmaglen are doing at club level. Massively different circumstances but they have basically flipped the concept of swarm defence on its head by swarming in attack and dropping back, rather than the other way round.

I was having a think about the evolutions of strategies on the way home from work today, basically about whether chaos as a major focus of attack could work in Football. Lar Corbett for Tipp hurlers in 2009 and 2010 was remarkably good in a role where it was as important for him to drag defences out of shape as it was to score. Aside from the fact that they are two completely different sports, there's a natural risk in setting one of your attackers the role of keeping the defence guessing. There's a hell of a lot thinking in it but would love to see someone try it.

Anyway that's just two ways of looking at it. In other sports the best attacking strategies have often evolved as response to forms of defence. I expect the same in Peil.

Spillane has already worked it out . Hoof it over from 60 yards

Boxtyeater wrote:Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.....The 1978 final was on TG4 there tonight.....Dreadful stuff.....
Lots of long kicking all right, most of it woeful. What clean catching was achieved was done by Sean Walsh. Tackling deplorable....

Patterns and systems will evolve. However the fear of losing has become the dominant factor. The drive toward super-fitness is detracting from the skills ie: the long ball forward into space and the courage to take the handy point from 35/40 yards when it's there for the taking.

The current batch of youngish managers will realise this sooner or later. We're in a state of transition. A courageous manager will set the template for the future. This won't be Kieran McGeeney, whose claim to fame is a sort of 4 mile chaser, when what's wanted is a Champion Hurdler with style, panache and an inner self confidence a'la Istabraq......

Jim McGuinness may yet be the Messiah.....

Do you still have those tickets for the semi ?
From memory i forecast Cork v Donegal at the time.

Their league game was great, despite being low-scoring, and it's definitely one of the more interesting pairings possible. I'd love to see them go head to head in Croker.

emmetryan wrote:Well if you even look at what Crossmaglen are doing at club level. Massively different circumstances but they have basically flipped the concept of swarm defence on its head by swarming in attack and dropping back, rather than the other way round.


Anyway that's just two ways of looking at it. In other sports the best attacking strategies have often evolved as response to forms of defence. I expect the same in Peil.

Valid points Emmet. As I said earlier I'm a bit of a fan of the old style, but the 78' final was horrific.
When did Dublin and Tyrone clash at a s/f where the standard was terrific.....Loads of footpassing, great stuff all round...

Meath, Sligo, Clare had started with 18 forwards between them yesterday. Not one of them scored from play. Not a one managed even a solitary point. Their total score from play was 0-0. 18 forwards. Forwards!
Football is finished

mossbags wrote:Meath, Sligo, Clare had started with 18 forwards between them yesterday. Not one of them scored from play. Not a one managed even a solitary point. Their total score from play was 0-0. 18 forwards. Forwards!
Football is finished

Just in Meath,Sligo and Clare.

Kevin Walsh was being vague but was getting his point across nonetheless. There were the usual qualifications that go with this territory. It was us that had asked him. And it wasn't the defeat that was influencing his take on events. How could it when it had been so comprehensive?

But at the end of what was probably the last of his four seasons with Sligo, Walsh was letting a little steam off. In a diplomatic way, of course. No names mentioned, no incidents really specified. Just a general observation from the trenches.

"There is certain stuff creeping into the game that has got to be dealt with by the eyes of the authorities that are out there, and it's not being fully dealt with," he warned.

"Cynical blocks, cynical pull-backs, complete pulling and tugging, in front of the linesman's eyes. Maybe someone might throw an arm back to release themselves.

"It's being let go left, right and centre by umpires and, to be fair maybe to some good forwards, unless this thing is stamped out, you're not going to see good forward play."

Perhaps Walsh had that incident in front of him just minutes from the end that led to Charlie Harrison's red card. John Doyle had tugged at the wing-back as he surged forward and Harrison drew back forcefully into Doyle's midriff. The Sligo man paid the price.

Has Walsh painted an accurate reflection of the game as it is? The intensity of the action over the last two weekends would suggest he has, damning and all as it is.

quality

Yes there are the great scores and the great moves and the high-octane energy brought by so many teams. The quality, when the game has been allowed to breathe, has been good.

If you are a connoisseur of great defence then you'll have appreciated Kildare's effort on Saturday night.

If it's flowing football you seek then Dublin's opening salvos against Meath or Kerry's response to Tyrone's goal in Killarney the previous week should have satisfied you.

But cynical fouling remains at the heart of every game played now. With so much at stake, the obligation to aesthetics goes out the window.

Referees are faced with a balancing act every time they now go for any of the games at the business end. No wonder, to use racing parlance, the most competent jockeys are now getting up on the most difficult horses.

The balance in allowing a game to flow and keeping spectator ire to a minimum in addition to retaining a decent connection with the playing rules as they exist is a delicate one.

David Coldrick was roundly criticised, chiefly by Mickey Harte, for the number of yellow cards he showed in Killarney and some were indeed contentious. But what about those he chose to overlook? He could have quickly made it a 13-a-side game on accumulation of fouls alone.

It's been that way for years but with rules experts and referees now commonplace in back-room teams, players now know how far they can push it and with whom.

The attitude towards cynicism and the benefits it brings was never better reflected than on the weekend before last. Limerick were 'naive' for not dragging down a host of Kildare players in the build-up to Emmet Bolton's equalising and ultimately liberating point. In contrast, Kerry were 'smart' with the areas of the field that they chose to haul down opponents. They had 'learned'.

There is little concrete evidence to suggest that teams are being coached to foul in rota order, that there is a system to how they kill a game's momentum.

In his co-commentary for RTE"s coverage of Saturday afternoon's fourth-round qualifier between Laois and Meath, Tony Davis mentioned a Laois player "taking one for the team".

It's a regular concept. Make the hit, take the card, slow the game and just be careful not to sail too close to the wind again.

In picking up second-half yellow cards, Cahir Healy, Pauric McMahon and Peter O'Leary all made sure that play was halted with the impact they made on opponents without any numerical damage.

The Laois recipients of yellow cards has been quite diverse this season with 17 different players picking them up in their five championship matches to date. Two, John O'Loughlin and Kevin Meaney have four each. Two more, Pauric Clancy and Brendan Quigley, have three each.

experimental

The appetite to restore the 'yellow card off' system that applied for the 2010 leagues on an experimental basis and came so close to success may not be there again, even though it was driven by the current GAA president Liam O'Neill.

But with more user-friendly software than the paper trail that currently exists with referees reports, the GAA are actively exploring a system where cumulative cards can lead to a suspension.

The anomaly of Cork playing just two championship matches for a Munster title and Donegal playing four to win an Ulster championship exists but then Donegal have had double the exposure to potential match bans under the current rules anyway. Once the competitions structure remains as it is, it shouldn't be an issue.

There will always be a body of opinion calling for less cards and much more tolerance of contact in the games. As long as they remain inter-county managers, Jack O'Connor and Mickey Harte will never recoil from that.

The action so far this season, despite a bright start, has done nothing to weaken the belief that it pays to be cynical. It's been intriguing, it's been fascinating and it will continue to be fascinating this weekend in Croke Park.

But cynicism continues to pay.

- Colm Keys

I agree in general with Keys article but he seems to point at Micky Harte and Jack Connor as the prime culprits. It was there before Jack became manager and also when Dublin, Laois, Cork,Donegal and I could name more have done exactly the same in recent weeks I note those managers are not on the namelist. It was there back in the 60's and early 70's and that is why the large square was introduced as full backs were pulling down forwards to concede a point instead of a goal. Was Kevin Walsh pointing the finger at Kildare? But narrowing down to two managers, because they have won most All Irelands in the past 10 years is unfair and I am afraid Colm Keys is being very selective in his argument. It is off the ball incidents that are the biggest problems at present with mouthing and intimidation and the officials turn a blind eye unless a player is dragged to the ground and held down then a yellow card for the victim, usually. The game is as good as ever but its not rule change that is needed but stricter and consistent enforcement of rules. By the way at times football is way behind the hurling when it comes cynical fouling etc,

Its finished for the losers anyway

Real Kerry Fan wrote:I agree in general with Keys article but he seems to point at Micky Harte and Jack Connor as the prime culprits. It was there before Jack became manager and also when Dublin, Laois, Cork,Donegal and I could name more have done exactly the same in recent weeks I note those managers are not on the namelist. It was there back in the 60's and early 70's and that is why the large square was introduced as full backs were pulling down forwards to concede a point instead of a goal. Was Kevin Walsh pointing the finger at Kildare? But narrowing down to two managers, because they have won most All Irelands in the past 10 years is unfair and I am afraid Colm Keys is being very selective in his argument. It is off the ball incidents that are the biggest problems at present with mouthing and intimidation and the officials turn a blind eye unless a player is dragged to the ground and held down then a yellow card for the victim, usually. The game is as good as ever but its not rule change that is needed but stricter and consistent enforcement of rules. By the way at times football is way behind the hurling when it comes cynical fouling etc,

Their was always a cynical element no doubt RKF but never before has it been so indoctrinated into the fabric of how to go about playing the game as now and Harte and O Connor clearly have plenty to answer for here. Over the course of their 2000's when Kerry and Tyrone were dominant the mantra was not what can we do and achieve but more, what can we stop the other team from doing and achieving and this despite possessing the likes of Gooch and Stephen o neill in their ranks. Very few counties possess such riches and will be less inclined to develop such rare talents with how the manner in which the modern game has evolved and there is no question as to who set the tone for this reality. The point of off the ball incidents and cynical fouling cannot be accounted for in a separate ledger when such incidents are part of the fulcrum of the majority of teams footballing philosophies today.

I go back to the question of skill. Where once this was to be celebrated in football now it's pretty much anathema if an opposing team is allowed demonstrate such a quality. A manager will strike down with furious anger upon any of his lads who could possibly allow any hint of a creative flourish from an opposing player. That's a dropping there buddy but not to worry the next generic soulless android footballer is readymade to take your place. Individual skill is not considered much of an asset in rugby and it's evident football is gone the same way. The cynical nature that formed the backbone of so much of Kerry and Tyrone throughout the last decade was always gonna have consequences.

I still say that other counties were equally if not more cynical but as they did not reap success as much as Kerry/Tyrone it was not commented on. A lot of similar comments wre made about Kilkenny in recent years.