Defence wins games, wins championships.

Couldnt be assed discussing it to be honest. Everyone knows Tyrone cheated their way to 03 all-ireland. 05 and 08 were much more impressive. Won fair and square makes a big difference.

samin12 wrote:Couldnt be assed discussing it to be honest.

Strange, as you felt the need to comment. Still, as you wish....

TC, I'd be interested in your analysis of the different forms of defensive that teams are employing at the moment. When does a team cross the line into "negative" territory?

I think that there has been a shift among quite a few sides this year, some playing more defensively, and some less.

Tyrone, for instance, have not played with a sweeper in any of their championship matches, yet last year Joe McMahon filled this role in almost all their games. Similarly Armagh and Derry have both played with fewer defenders than in 2010. Dublin also. Last year they had David Henry playing as an extra half-back but, while still playing quite deep, this year they are slightly more adventurous, aided in this, no doubt, by the emergence of Alan Brogan as a threat to compliment his brother. Kildare have played with a sweeper at times in most of their games, but they allow their wing-backs and John Doyle quite a bit of freedom to attack, and this is the source of a lot of their scores.

Donegal, in my opinion, aren't actually playing that differently to what they were under John Joe Doherty. Watch the 2009 qtr final against Cork, and you will see Rory Kavanagh playing as an out-and-out extra defender (from wing-forward), and a 2 man FF line of McFadden and Murphy. For me, there have been 2 big differences in Donegal: firstly, they are stronger and fitter under McGuinness, and secondly they are more disciplined on the field.

I missed the Ulster final, but I did see Donegal's first 3 matches, and the thing that was most striking was their discipline in holding their defensive shape. In 2009, Cork ran at the Donegal defenders and pulled them all over the place. This year, they have been much better at preserving their shape, not getting caught out of position, and waiting for the opposition to make mistakes. The amount of ball Tyrone had in the semi final was incredible, yet they rarely looked like doing much with it. Donegal let them have the ball up to the 45m line, and then completely shut them down. It was impressive and hard to watch in equal measures. I don't see them getting hammered this year by anyone like they did in 2009.

The title of this thread states that 'defences win championships', something I don't agree with. It's a well known expression in American Football, and could also have been applicable to soccer, yet rule changes in both those sports have rendered this old adage obsolete.

The NFL used to be a run dominated game, yet restrictions on defences have turned it into a passing league. More points are scored, and even the greatest of defences are unable to stop the best offences. Similarly in soccer, the back pass rule of the early 90s, coupled with the off-side changes in the last few years, have meant that sides now have much more space to play in, and more space means more scores.

The same is true in the GAA. The most lasting and strongest felt changes in any sport are never tactical, but rather technological and legislative. The GAA, in the last 40 years, is evidence of this. The first change was the introduction of plastic balls and lighter boots, meaning that both players and the ball could cover more ground, more quickly. It was the final nail in the coffin of catch and kick, and saw mobility and possession come to the fore. The reintroduction of the hand-pass around this time aided sides ability to keep the ball, and the need for giant men who were good in the air began to lessen.

The next big change came c.1990, when frees off the ground were replaced by frees from the hand. The impact this had on the game was huge, and increased both the speed of the game, and the time the ball was in play, the latter necessitating increased fitness. The increase of substitutions to 5 this decade further allowed sides to cover more ground, as they could virtually replace all their half forward and midfielders, traditionally the players who cover most ground.

All these changes have resulted in a game were possession is crucial, and speed, movement and fitness are to the fore. Throw in video analysis, another technical advancement, and you have extremely smart coaches with exceptionally fit athletes to make use of. The result has been the introduction of systems based primarily on fitness and ball retention.

Of course, all managers will make use of their resources in a different way. Some will believe that territory and moving the ball quickly into the opposition danger area is key, while others will prize ball retention (Mickey Harte being the most obvious example of the later).

However, I don't believe either of these things are the most important factor in success in field sports. For me, success in team sports is determined mainly by the use and control of space. It is possible, albeit difficult, to control a game of gaelic football without having the ball. If you doubt this, watch the last 50 mintues of Tyrone v Donegal, where Tyrone had lots of possession, yet Donegal always looked like the side in control of things. This was because Donegal controlled the amount of space that Tyrone had to play in which, as it happens was the entire field outside of the Donegal 45m line (i.e. useless space). It isn't, however, possible to control a game without controlling space. If a side is unable to create space when attacking, and limit gaps when defending, they will lose.

More than anything in football, my belief is that a manager's most important task is to ensure that his best players get on the ball as often as possible, in the best positions possible, and in as much space as possible. For me, that is the single biggest issue that any manager faces, and all talk of systems should revolve around it.

I have to say that is an "A star" quality post there TC and a very enjoyable read

Thomas Clarke wrote:Good to see the Armagh contingent contributing to the debate, with you-tube clips and one liners.

Not much to discuss when it comes t McMenamin being a dirty player.

[quote="Thomas Clarke"]The title of this thread states that 'defences win championships', something I don't agree with. It's a well known expression in American Football, and could also have been applicable to soccer, yet rule changes in both those sports have rendered this old adage obsolete.

Post of the year......to date..

Búladh bos TC..

Good post (as usual TC).

Want to throw in a couple of points. Agree that back pass and offside changes have favoured offences (thankfully) but have we seen an increase in goals - not sure about that.

I think that the development of psychological 'stuff' in Gaelic sports has had a huge effect but thats another days discussion!

I also think the whole blanket defence / puke football has been an easy crutch for lazy journalists/analysts to feed on. The basics of Gaelic football remain the same - its 15 v 15 - as do the basics of soccer and most other sports. In moments of hedonism, drunkeness - or both - I have often considered the brave manager who picks 9 forwards. Surely the opposing manager needs 9 defenders??

I think that the current concept of negativity - which dates back to the 00s - has been copied because of its success - imitation best form of flattery etc. Its not unusual for teams to adapt 'successful systems' - and sometimes if managers don't (and they are unsuccessful - which most are) then the pressure is on as to why they didn't do the same as Team A (aka the winners).

I would love some GAA manager to go all out attacking. When he sees a sweeper employed - then throw in a 7th forward.

But it all boils down to being confident with your one on one situations. While not playing anything like as an attacking game as I’d like, Dublin try damn hard
to give BB as many one on ones as they can. Opposing managers now try to double team him. The smarts are knowing where the space from this 'extra' man are. We do not appear to have these smarts ….

In terms of evolution of systems I think the Tyrone team of the late 00s were excellent in taking a defensive type game and developing it into something much better - a system that embraced the intense defensive cover but one that released (and encouraged) players from every position to attack - knowing they were covered in doing so. Cork have adapted it successfully but do not play it as effectively or aesthetically as Tyrone did in their prime - they do not have the players that Tyrone did. But I am surprised more teams are leaning back towards the early 00s rather that the late 00s in terms of what are lazily termed defensive systems.

Finally I think one should look towards Catalonia in terms of development of a team. Gaelic sport is small, soccer is massive - but Pep Guardiola has rewritten the text books in recent years ... and done so playing entertaining and skillful football - which is fantastic. As good as Arsenal in attack and as mean as an Italian 70s team in defence. A high work ethic - all about having the ball - as TC says above - but by God when they have it they know how to use it. I look forward to the GAA manager that perfects this system!! Then you have to have the players who love the ball .... still - I live in hope!

TC....pressing is one thing...surrounding a player on the ground not allowing him to get up can only be called a blanket defence. Do you want to use the term swarming maybe? Just so you can avoid using the term blanket defence which you seem so reluctant to use? You are a great one for whipping out the 'blinkers' label for me but I can see nothing less of it from you in this instance. You appear determined to put Tyrone's displays in 2003 in a different light than most people (outside of Tyrone that is) hold them. I totally disagree with your assessment that the Tyrone team in 2003 were the best of that bunch...convincing wins throughout the season yes (except the AIF) but some pretty ugly football and some pretty dirty tricks. By 2005 they had lost the shackles of pretenders and played with a greater freedom to their game. Their performance against Kerry in the AIF in 2005 was an excellent one, the tyoe of performance that better displayed Tyrone's finer qualities.

You should also consider into your equation of how far Tyrone were ahead of everyone else by recognising that in the 2003 AIF (stage fright you reckon?? bulls**t) one of the finest players on the pitch, Diarmuid Marsden, was sent off harshly. Tyrone were never that far ahead of Armagh between 2003 and 2005 and had there been no qualifier system in place Armagh, it is likely, would have won a back to back in 2003 and jaysus maybe could have given it a rattle in 2004. And as a Down man I don't forget Brian McGuigan's shameful antics in the 2003 Ulster final which resulted in Gregory McCartan seeing red or the great Peter Canavan simply falling to the ground in the box to win a penalty. But that's just my gripe with Tyrone in 2003.

You call me ignorant for holding an opinion that many many people hold about Tyrone, especially the 2003 team. I say they were defensive....you appear to be taking the opposite view. That's your opinion and I respect it. It is only natural that you would defend your own county, I would do the same. But even you must admit that Tyrone just weren't liked...their style wasn't liked. It was defensive and often accompanied by dirty tricks. As intense as it was....as much fitness as it required....as much discipline....it was just not pretty. I didn't like the style at all and I am by no means alone in that. It was effective...but ugly.

Ugly football is of course a subjective thing. Where I was disgusted at Tyrone's style in 2003, you quite rightly probably burned with pride at seeing the lads from your county get right into the faces of the mighty Kerry and beat them off the park. I would have been the same...in fact I swelled with pride last year when we too hammered Kerry off the park

But imagine all games were played in the Tyrone 2003 style TC. Imagine every team decided to pursue this 'swarming' tactic....what would we have? It would be a game neither worth watching nor playing...let alone paying to see. With the levels of fitness in football now this would not be impossible...Tyrone were no supermen and not the only team capable of simply running around surrounding men. But if everyone played like Kerry we would have some great matches (but everyone would get beat by Kerry!). So like I said....Tyrone in 2003 = effective but ugly.

bluearmy1 wrote:TC....pressing is one thing...surrounding a player on the ground not allowing him to get up can only be called a blanket defence. Do you want to use the term swarming maybe? Should they have let the Kerry man get to his feet, and play a nice pass to a colleague? Did Down do this last year, when they too pressed Kerry high up the field? There was no foul committed.

convincing wins throughout the season yes (except the AIF) - Tyrone spurned 4-5 clear goal chances in that game. Armagh had 1.

but some pretty ugly football and some pretty dirty tricks. - I'd say that the annihilations I listed earlier would indicate that, for most of the year, Tyrone played very good football

had there been no qualifier system in place Armagh, it is likely, would have won a back to back in 2003 - If there had been no qualifiers, Armagh would have been out of the Championship in May that year.

But imagine all games were played in the Tyrone 2003 style TC. Imagine every team decided to pursue this 'swarming' tactic....what would we have? Pressure, high up the field, swarming round opponents to regain the ball. Sounds a lot like Barcelona to me.

Tyrone in 2003 weren't perfect, and they did defend too deep in the 2nd half against Kerry. They also failed to sparkle in the all-ireland final, itself a very poor game of football. But they played good football for the vast majority of the year, and there was no 'blanket defence' in the way you are referring to it. Anyway, I'll leave you to your lazy cliches at this stage, and suggest again that you revisit Down v Derry in 1994 and critique the swarming from Messrs Blaney and McCartan in that game.

Jayo Cluxton wrote: Dublin try damn hard to give BB as many one on ones as they can. Opposing managers now try to double team him. The smarts are knowing where the space from this 'extra' man are. We do not appear to have these smarts ….

Finally I think one should look towards Catalonia in terms of development of a team. Gaelic sport is small, soccer is massive - but Pep Guardiola has rewritten the text books in recent years ... and done so playing entertaining and skillful football - which is fantastic. As good as Arsenal in attack and as mean as an Italian 70s team in defence. A high work ethic - all about having the ball - as TC says above - but by God when they have it they know how to use it. I look forward to the GAA manager that perfects this system!! Then you have to have the players who love the ball .... still - I live in hope!

Two very valid points Jayo. Pat Gilroy has a superb footballer in Bernard Brogan. He has the speed and power to win ball, and is usually very accurate. Dublin's gameplan is about trying to get him the ball in as much space as possible, and they trust him to score from that possession more often than not. It is a simple tactic, but it takes a very fine forward to make it work.

As for the Barcelona analogy, well certainly this is the ultimate in sports. To have a team that work hard, are skillful, score heavily and concede little, and win everything in front of them. We had that once in gaelic football, as RKF will no doubt tell us, and I hope that we see it again at some stage.

The trouble is that fans don't give the managers a chance to build something like that, and it is much easier and quicker to put in place a rigid defensive system that makes your side competitive, rather than saying 'what is the absolute best place we can be in 5 years from now', and giving good, capable people the time to try and to get there. Gaelic football has become all being competitive in the next game, and that short-sightedness is to the detriment of positivity and vision.

GAA-Fan wrote:

bocerty wrote:Bluearmy you are perfectly entitled to your opinion and i dont take anything you say personally. One point i will pick up on though is the nastiness you say Tyrone brought to the table and the 'diving' you alluded to.

I agree that some of the antics of Tyrone players was at times unsavoury but again i think its a label we have inherited whcih we dont fully deserve. Armagh were famed for the knee in the back/chest/ribs/head and the greatest exponent was Francie Bellew, and yet he is seen as some sort of a legend. Ricey has a word in your ear (i know he had other tricks up his sleeve such as nut tickling) and he is called a scumbag by many. So in some respect i think Tyrone are hated more than say Armagh because we were slightly more successful and the word hatred could almost be repalced by jealous!!!!

As for the diving, i know big Sean was fond of the going to ground at the slightest touch and no doubt Samin is still agrieved at Jordan for the incident in the 2003 final but with due respect the likes of Dooher took an awful lot of abuse during games. The incident in the Westmeath game in Omagh when he went down is always brought up but look at it closely it was a full blown punch in the stomach and while it may not have been enough to knock him down i dont blame him for going to ground, the other alternative was to hit the Westmeath guy a smack in the mouth and head to the sideline with him!!!!

Here you go Bocerty, you have your red and white tinted glasses on so watch these clips...

GF perhaps you should read my post before making silly comments like the one above, had you read it right you'd have seen i was in no way defending Ricey or his antics so your slideshow of videos was totally irrelevant.

Jayo Cluxton wrote:Good post (as usual TC).

Want to throw in a couple of points. Agree that back pass and offside changes have favoured offences (thankfully) but have we seen an increase in goals - not sure about that.

I think that the development of psychological 'stuff' in Gaelic sports has had a huge effect but thats another days discussion!

I also think the whole blanket defence / puke football has been an easy crutch for lazy journalists/analysts to feed on. The basics of Gaelic football remain the same - its 15 v 15 - as do the basics of soccer and most other sports. In moments of hedonism, drunkeness - or both - I have often considered the brave manager who picks 9 forwards. Surely the opposing manager needs 9 defenders??

I think that the current concept of negativity - which dates back to the 00s - has been copied because of its success - imitation best form of flattery etc. Its not unusual for teams to adapt 'successful systems' - and sometimes if managers don't (and they are unsuccessful - which most are) then the pressure is on as to why they didn't do the same as Team A (aka the winners).

I would love some GAA manager to go all out attacking. When he sees a sweeper employed - then throw in a 7th forward.

But it all boils down to being confident with your one on one situations. While not playing anything like as an attacking game as I’d like, Dublin try damn hard
to give BB as many one on ones as they can. Opposing managers now try to double team him. The smarts are knowing where the space from this 'extra' man are. We do not appear to have these smarts ….

In terms of evolution of systems I think the Tyrone team of the late 00s were excellent in taking a defensive type game and developing it into something much better - a system that embraced the intense defensive cover but one that released (and encouraged) players from every position to attack - knowing they were covered in doing so. Cork have adapted it successfully but do not play it as effectively or aesthetically as Tyrone did in their prime - they do not have the players that Tyrone did. But I am surprised more teams are leaning back towards the early 00s rather that the late 00s in terms of what are lazily termed defensive systems.

Finally I think one should look towards Catalonia in terms of development of a team. Gaelic sport is small, soccer is massive - but Pep Guardiola has rewritten the text books in recent years ... and done so playing entertaining and skillful football - which is fantastic. As good as Arsenal in attack and as mean as an Italian 70s team in defence. A high work ethic - all about having the ball - as TC says above - but by God when they have it they know how to use it. I look forward to the GAA manager that perfects this system!! Then you have to have the players who love the ball .... still - I live in hope!

Jayo you'll find John Brennan pulled this stunt in a McKenna cup game against Tyrone earlier this year - Tyrone deployed Gormley as a sort of sweeper to shackle Bradley which meant there were 2 men on him. Brennan immediately sent one of his half backs up the field to play as a 7th forward and totally negated Gormleys role and Derry won from what i remember.

Bad mistake on my part there with the back to back thing.

But nevertheless....

No they were perfectly entitled not to allow the Kerry man to his feet. Following your now tedious tradition of picking out parts of my posts and ignoring others you have failed to see the parts where I clearly said that Tyrone's tactics were effective and they could not have been expected to sit back and watch Kerry pass about them. Down's tackling against Kerry was intense, it was high up the field...but fell short of the intense swarming employed by Tyrone in 2003.

Goal chances? What? 'Chances' are a convenient way of saying 'misses'.

Tyrone did indeed play some nice football throughout the year...I never said they didn't. But those wins were greatly aided by their tactics as well as their footballing ability.

Your comparison of Tyrone to Barcelona....Gaelic to soccer....is a strange one. But I suppose the antics of Pedro and Sergio Busquets in the semi-final against Real tie in well with Tyrone's in 2003 I quite like Barcelona's style, it's enjoyable to watch in a soccer contest, where excitement is often at a premium. But in a game where you have about 1 or 2 scores a match, it's hard to draw too many comparisons where there are scores every few minutes.

bocerty wrote:

GAA-Fan wrote:

bocerty wrote:Bluearmy you are perfectly entitled to your opinion and i dont take anything you say personally. One point i will pick up on though is the nastiness you say Tyrone brought to the table and the 'diving' you alluded to.

I agree that some of the antics of Tyrone players was at times unsavoury but again i think its a label we have inherited whcih we dont fully deserve. Armagh were famed for the knee in the back/chest/ribs/head and the greatest exponent was Francie Bellew, and yet he is seen as some sort of a legend. Ricey has a word in your ear (i know he had other tricks up his sleeve such as nut tickling) and he is called a scumbag by many. So in some respect i think Tyrone are hated more than say Armagh because we were slightly more successful and the word hatred could almost be repalced by jealous!!!!

As for the diving, i know big Sean was fond of the going to ground at the slightest touch and no doubt Samin is still agrieved at Jordan for the incident in the 2003 final but with due respect the likes of Dooher took an awful lot of abuse during games. The incident in the Westmeath game in Omagh when he went down is always brought up but look at it closely it was a full blown punch in the stomach and while it may not have been enough to knock him down i dont blame him for going to ground, the other alternative was to hit the Westmeath guy a smack in the mouth and head to the sideline with him!!!!

Here you go Bocerty, you have your red and white tinted glasses on so watch these clips...

GF perhaps you should read my post before making silly comments like the one above, had you read it right you'd have seen i was in no way defending Ricey or his antics so your slideshow of videos was totally irrelevant.

You might not have meant it to sound that way Bocerty but when I read it, it sounded like calling McMenamin a scumbag is unjustified, especially when comparing him to Bellew (who I am not saying is a clean player). I would not use the term scumbag to describe a player but would call McMenamin and dirty player but im sure its something he can live with as long as he gets the job done for Tyrone.

Regarding the 2003 all-ireland final, i certainly dont remember 4 or 5 goal chances for Tyrone. I remember two good chances. Not to mention Tyrone getting at least 3 or 4 points from frees that were direct results of dives, so take these chances out and maybe they didnt dominate quite as much as you think TC. Not to mention the sending off, or the very lucky escape by Kevin Hughes in not being sent off. It was no coincidence that the Gaa introduced new rules after 2003 to try and combat the problem of diving. Dont get me wrong, Tyrone were the better team but only for terrible refereeing and cheating by the Tyrone players then we could have won.

Anyway, long time ago. Looking forward to game tomorrow night. Cant see us doing it to be honest. Any tips on where to park to get quick exit. Bit of drinking to do when i get back to armagh. More than likely drowning my sorrows

TC your posts are a good read and your obviously a deep thinker when it comes to sport but i would have to disagree with the point that Tyrone 2003 were better than Tyrone 2005.

Yes we racked up big scores in 03 and we brought a new level of intensity to the table which no one was ready for or could match but i think the quality of football in 03 wasnt as high as the football of 2005, in fact i would struggle to remember some of the games we played in 2003 and yet i can remember quite a bit of 2005.

TC - considered answer required here! And take the ball - not the man!