Worst All-Ireland champions last 25 years

A topic of much debate since Cork lifted Sam last September. It's been said that bad teams don't win All-Irelands - and I accept that - but by definition of best and worst, this is a valid discussion in my opinion. So here goes.

I have ruled out all teams who won Sam more than once in the space of four years, with the exception of Kerry in 1997, for reasons explained later. That leaves us with:

Donegal - 1992
Derry - 1993
Dublin - 1995
Kerry - 1997
Armagh - 2002
Cork - 2010

To be honest, I don't think anyone will argue with the teams left out. The Kerry team in '86 had just completed a three in a row, and from then on, Meath and Cork dominated, forming three of the next four finals. Meath were there again in 1991. Down in the nineties were a great side and full value for their All-Irelands, as were the Meath sides of 1996 and 1999 who were unlucky not to win another in 1997. The Galway teams contained some fantastic footballers and appeared in three finals between 1998 and 2001, winning two and taking the other to a replay. No explanation needed for Kerry and Tyrone in the noughties, as dominant as ever there has been.

So we are left with the six teams listed. I am prepared to rule out Dublin 1995 since they appeared in multiple finals up until then and were then unlucky to bump into great Meath teams after that, and Armagh 2002 who won seven Ulster titles and followed their All-Ireland up with an appearance in one the year after. For me, they certainly meet great team criteria despite only one All-Ireland win.

Donegal in 1992. I am going to conclude that they were the fourth worst in 25 years. Very good side but possibly fell short of greatness. Some good players too but not many stick out like say Down.

Derry 1993. Built on a resolute defence and a strong midfield, but lacking severly in the forwards department. Teams with forwards as bad as Derrys should really not win All-Irelands but they made up for it in other areas of the pitch I guess.

Kerry in 1997 are the big enigma. For many, Kerry got lucky that year meeting Cavan in the semi-finals and a nervous Mayo in the final. Cavan certainly weren't anything special in those days and Mayo always got shaky in finals. Plus there is Maurice Fitzgerald, who single-handely won some of these games. It was a Kerry team building on the u21 success of the year before, and they really did make the most of the luck that came their way. Were it not for replays, injuries and suspensions, Meath probably would have won it again.

Cork 2010. Now here's some statistics. Take out the frees, sidelines, penalties and 45s, and Dublin beat Cork 1-12 to 0-08 in the semi-final and Down beat them 0-12 to 0-07 in the final. Their forwards were really, really ordinary and they relied so much on the placed kicking of Goulding and O'Connor. Having said all this, Cork did win the League in 2010 and 2011, and have now went seven years unbeaten by all teams bar Kerry. So they're obviously doing something right.

So the top five worst All-Ireland winners for me are:

5. Dublin - 1995
4. Donegal - 1992
3. Cork - 2010
2. Derry - 1993
1. Kerry - 1997

Well I certainly don't think Armagh should be on that list....as much as I love to slag our good friends across the Clanrye that was a really fine side who in the pre-Qualifier era might have won at least one more All-Ireland title. They would certainly see 2004 and 2005 as years that got away and were damn close to getting the back to back in 2003. To me...that was a great team that never achieved greatness.

But yeah if I had to pick a team from that list I would probably go with Cork.....they stumbled their way to the title last year....got the handy draw in the quarters, Kerry got put to the sword....and the Dubs, knowing that Down would defeat Kildare, just decided they didn't want to face the Mournemen in the final and handed the game to Cork. Thought Cork were fairly average in the final, heavily reliant on their physical presence and place kicking.

In terms of footballing ability I would definitely say Cork 2010.

Just a pity they still beat us!

No Cork didn't have that flair in the forwards that All-Ireland champions typically have. Although I confess up until last Sunday Goulding, Kerrigan and Sheehan had all impressed me, and I was starting to believe that they would become top forwards (they still might). As well, Colm O'Neill was only a sub in the semi-final and final last year, so to keep him out of the team suggests that the others were doing something right.

However, I think Kerry (1997) and Derry (1993) had worse forwards. Four of the Kerry forwards in 1997 had won an U21 All-Ireland the year previous, and Mike Frank Russell also started in the u21s, and came on as a sub against Mayo. Maurice Fitzgerald was the true scoring threat (and carried them to that All-Ireland), and the other older forward was Pa Laide who wasnt noted for scoring prowess. Derry in 1993 relied completely on Enda Gormely and to a lesser extent Joe Brolly. In fairness to Derry, they did complement their All-Ireland with three Leagues. But I mean who were Dermot Heaney, Damian Barton, Damian Cassidy and Seamus Downey?

Between these three teams.

The logic behind the list is Logical

so we have
Donegal - 1992
Derry - 1993
Dublin - 1995
Kerry - 1997
Armagh - 2002
Cork - 2010

In my view Armagh are a strike out straight away - The team with McGrane, McNulty,McGeeney,Marsden,McDonnell Clarke - McConville and the rest of the cross contigent are the biggest underachievers of the period and should have won two could have won three.

Cork are my next strikeout - As Loyal has touched on they are unbeaten except for their nemises Kerry for yonks. It might not be flair but they are the strongest team Ive ever seen and if they get passed the Kerry hoodoo they could go on to dominate for a while. So on that basis its premature to grade them as they have improved year on year starting with a defeat by Fermanagh

Next I will strike out Donegal - Semi finalists in 1990 hearts broken by O rourke and Stafford - Champions in 1992 and other than Cavan in the first round they deserved each win en route. Drew a league final in 1993 and lost the replay once Dublin copped on that the key was to foul Barry Mcgowan the original GAA ball carrier. 1993 in Clones was a seminal momemt a game played in the worst conditions that I have ever seen. Tohill "Rained" in a game that was not suited to ball carrying and the team disentigrated - a case of what might have been. Loyal talks about Marquee forwards but any six from Tony Boyle, Manus Boyle, Tommy Ryan, Declan bonner, James McHugh, Martin McHugh, Joyce McMullen would be better than six from the list above.

After that Loyal has articulated it correctly - I would probably have Kerry Number 3 - Dublin Number 2 - whilst they did have the Barrs the Murphys and the Redmonds at the end of the day they won a controversial All Ireland - Calved in 1992 when the route to glory was Clare and Donegal and not much more
And Derry number 1. In my view if the game had been called off in Clones in 1993 (after a minor player broke his leg in the Mud) they may never have got out of Ulster. And even after that stroke of fortune lets not forget the Tony Davis red card in the AI final (although Cahalane should have gone earlier)

I have not thought out the question yet but Kerry 1997 may be not one of the best of Kerry champion teams but in the overall context it would still leave them not towards the bottom rung of the ladder over the past 25 years. List to follow.

Good post from Omar. Pity there's nobody to argue Derry's case. We'll see what RKF says in defence of Kerry in 1997. I suspect it won't matter much to him given he can take comfort in another thirty-something All-Irelands. But to take Derry's All-Ireland away from them (in a hypothetical kind of way), or Donegal or Armaghs for that matter, would be cruel.

For me, Meath should have won it in 1997 and not Kerry.

A lot changed between 1997 and 1998. Kildare had learned how to beat Meath, who should have lost to Louth in the Leinster semi and then Micko put one over on Kerry in the All-Ireland semi. Kildare had beaten the last three All-Ireland winners en route to the final that year, but unfortunetely bumped into Galway in the final. If there was a thread for best team not to win it in 25 years, Kildare in 1998 would be strong contenders. But take nothing away from Galway who were there or thereabouts for the next three years.

Where does Jayo see the Dublin team? Justified to be included in a top 5 of worst All-Ireland winners in 25 years?

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:Where does Jayo see the Dublin team? Justified to be included in a top 5 of worst All-Ireland winners in 25 years?

Loyal - if we won a fookin Sam it'd be a start!! No - good points but I thought that team were a bit special but unlucky and yet lucky when they did win!

Jayo Cluxton wrote:

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:Where does Jayo see the Dublin team? Justified to be included in a top 5 of worst All-Ireland winners in 25 years?

Loyal - if we won a fookin Sam it'd be a start!! No - good points but I thought that team were a bit special but unlucky and yet lucky when they did win!

I think all dubs are "a bit special"

Cork seem to be AI champions by default at the moment. They weren't good enough to beat Tyrone and Kerry 2-3 years ago but since those teams' decline they managed to slide in to win an AI. Kerry look to be rebuilding again so Cork seem destined to be the bridesmaid once more.

my arguement has been the last great all ireland win was 2005 - 3 teams all at the peak of their game with a cigeratte paper between the 3 of them.

in 06,07 and 09 kerry won by default winning handy finals
in 2008 tyrone were clinical against a limited dublin team (blue book sale still on in easons!) got lucky that it was wexford in the semi and kerry had enough of the hoodoo in the final

last year cork won because the field fell away, and how down ended up in the final is beyond me. since 2005 any one of about 6 teams could have won sam namely cork kerry tyrone dublin armagh and maybe kildare or mayo.

i thought derry in 93 were an exceptional team who is downey - them boys could play some football. donegal were lucky in 92 struggled past a poor mayo team and sure charlie brought the champagne to the match in the kit bag, the dubs turned up in thier own cars like it was a league match, werent tuned in and were threw out.

probably for me dublin 95 were the worst team , tyrone had 1 man and could/should still have won sam. had the "hogg" been picked and cush had been fit never mind the disputed free and extra man dublin woudl still be waiting since 1983

This is not getting into this Nordie debate. Much as I admire Tyrone their record leaves a lot to be desired. Won 2003, 2004 knocked out by Mayo, won 2005, 2006 (Laois) and 2007 (Meath) knocked out.Won 2008 and 2009 Cork beat them. 2010 beaten by Dublin. Knocked out by Mayo,Laois,Meath,Cork and Dublin. No back to back titles. and losing to not great teams.I still admire their manager and some great players but their overall tecord could have been far better.

Real Kerry Fan wrote:This is not getting into this Nordie debate. Much as I admire Tyrone their record leaves a lot to be desired. Won 2003, 2004 knocked out by Mayo, won 2005, 2006 (Laois) and 2007 (Meath) knocked out.Won 2008 and 2009 Cork beat them. 2010 beaten by Dublin. Knocked out by Mayo,Laois,Meath,Cork and Dublin. No back to back titles. and losing to not great teams.I still admire their manager and some great players but their overall tecord could have been far better.

Tyrone were a great team in 2003 and 2005. That faithful Bank Holiday weekend in 2004 when Mayo beat Tyrone and Fermanagh beat Armagh is still hard to explain. Even Derry beating the Leinster champions Westmeath - the following week - was a shock. Besides Mayo were a very good team in those days, just lacking a killer instinct.

By 2008, Tyrone relied a lot on their craft and experience to get them by. If they hadn't already achieved legendary status, they certainly did when they won that All-Ireland. It was a victory for heroism.

Plus the same argument could apply to Kerry, who could not beat Tyrone over the ten years, so where does that leave them? I guess you could go to all sorts of extremes to make an argument against all All-Ireland champions. But with Tyrone, I would not even bother.

Meath were on the crest of a wave in 2007. They should have won Leinster and would have, but for some shocking refereeing. To this day, I have not seen a referee get so many big calls wrong as Jimmy McKee did that day against Dublin. Graham Geraghty, not for the only time in his career, had a stunning goal disallowed - for a jump. Then moments later, Alan Brogan camping in the Meath square impeded Brendan Murphy and somehow the goal stood. As if that wasn't bad enough, Geraghty was then hauled to the ground when in on goal, and no penalty was given.

Still we made the most of the second chance culminating in the defeat of Tyrone. Meath and Kerry were actually joint favourites for the All-Ireland after the Quarter-Finals with Kerry having the percieved harder semi-final against Dublin. But Meath suffered a meltdown against Cork, who in turn melted against Kerry.

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:

Real Kerry Fan wrote:This is not getting into this Nordie debate. Much as I admire Tyrone their record leaves a lot to be desired. Won 2003, 2004 knocked out by Mayo, won 2005, 2006 (Laois) and 2007 (Meath) knocked out.Won 2008 and 2009 Cork beat them. 2010 beaten by Dublin. Knocked out by Mayo,Laois,Meath,Cork and Dublin. No back to back titles. and losing to not great teams.I still admire their manager and some great players but their overall tecord could have been far better.

Tyrone were a great team in 2003 and 2005. That faithful Bank Holiday weekend in 2004 when Mayo beat Tyrone and Fermanagh beat Armagh is still hard to explain. Even Derry beating the Leinster champions Westmeath - the following week - was a shock. Besides Mayo were a very good team in those days, just lacking a killer instinct.

By 2008, Tyrone relied a lot on their craft and experience to get them by. If they hadn't already achieved legendary status, they certainly did when they won that All-Ireland. It was a victory for heroism.

Plus the same argument could apply to Kerry, who could not beat Tyrone over the ten years, so where does that leave them? I guess you could go to all sorts of extremes to make an argument against all All-Ireland champions. But with Tyrone, I would not even bother.

I am just making a point that claims that Kerry's All Irelands were by default as they were knocked out by one team 2003-2009, while Tyrone lost to a number of lesser teams.

Real Kerry Fan wrote:This is not getting into this Nordie debate. Much as I admire Tyrone their record leaves a lot to be desired. Won 2003, 2004 knocked out by Mayo, won 2005, 2006 (Laois) and 2007 (Meath) knocked out.Won 2008 and 2009 Cork beat them. 2010 beaten by Dublin. Knocked out by Mayo,Laois,Meath,Cork and Dublin. No back to back titles. and losing to not great teams.I still admire their manager and some great players but their overall tecord could have been far better.

i wasnt knocking kerry i just feel that 06 07 and 09 the opponents failed to turn up for the final and that they werent great championships

tyrone could have won more all irelands 09 was a real chance for back to back , 04 was never on the cards hard enough to defend after the first win but losing your captain in such circumstances meant that it was a no go year. 06 and 07 indeed 08 are hard to explain how we did or didnt go as far or futher than expected.

woudl you disagree that the best championship in the last 25 years woudlnt be the 2005 year?

I often wonder whether this current Cork team is denied the credit it deserves by virtue of the unattractive football that they play.

Of the list of 1-time winners, at first glance I would have rated Cork in 2010 as the weakest, closely followed by Kerry's 1997 incarnation, with Armagh of 2002 third. But the more I think about it, the more credit I'm inclined to give the rebels.
Last year's Cork team seemed to win the AI without ever playing exceptionally well, in what was probably as poor a Championship as we've seen in recent times. As others have pointed out, they were heavily reliant on scores from frees, and depended on the indiscipline of other teams to see them through. A Dublin side with only one forward should have beaten them in the semi-final.
However, their record over the last couple of years cannot be ignored, and their back-to-back league titles show that there is more than just luck driving them on. They tend to physically dominate teams, and whilst not the most attractive it is certainly effective. Their strength in midfield (much more so when Nicholas Murphy in on the pitch) both allows them to provide lots of ball into their forwards (which is a big part in them winning so many frees), and also prevents teams from attacking them at pace. Their wing-backs and wing-forwards do tireless work, and both stifle their opponents when defending, and pressrue them when attacking. Much of their style reminds me of Chelsea under José. Ruthless, ugly and effective.

How they react to last week's defeat to Kerry will determine how much credit they will receive in hindsight, but to my mind they've already shown that last year wasn't as much down to luck as some would claim.

Quick addendum to that.

Armagh in 2002 should probably be considered luckier to have won that year than Cork were last year.

Quarter final, Dara McGarty fists a point in 1-on-1. Point was the equalising score. If he took his goal Armagh were out. With the last attack of the game, Eamon O'Hara ballooned a shot from 30 metres out towards the corner flag, with Dessie Sloyan unmarked on the 21.

Replay, (Armagh won by 2 points), in injury time, Sligo dropped a free into the square. Gerry McGowan was pulled down whilst trying to connect with the ball, and one of the Armagh corner backs then scooped the ball off the ground in the small square to clear the danger. (Armagh just about deserved to win the replay, but were very lucky that no penalty was given).

Semi-final, Ray Cosgrave - say no more!

Again, in Armagh's defence, it's all well and good to call them lucky but they were All-Ireland champions 2002, finalists 2003, should have been in the final 2004, semi finalists 2005 only to lose due to a last minute free kick. In my humble opinion, had the back-door system not been in place, I believe Armagh would have won at least one more All-Ireland....and I think it would have '04 or '05. Throw on top of that 6 Ulster titles out of 8 when Ulster was a pretty powerful province. Of course that's all hypothetical but there is no doubt they were one of the best outfits around in the last decade and would certainly feel aggrieved that their Tyrone neighbours went on to be seen as the Ulster force of the 00's via effective use of the qualifier system while all Armagh's provincial titles merely amounted to one of the great underachievements in Ulster football.

Just look at the players they had.....McConville, Clarke, McDonnell, McGrane, McGeeney, Marsden....all very high quality footballers. Sad thing is they probably didn't have to play as negatively as they often did with the real talent they had. Perhaps the difference between them and Tyrone was Tyrone's ability to adapt quickly to an ever-changing game.

Missing the point bluearmy.

I'm saying that Cork were a better team than they are given credit for, and if people were to apply the same criteria used to condemn Cork to the Armagh team, the result wouldn't be too pretty.


Also, never bought into the whole Ulster being so strong in the 2000s. Tyrone and Armagh were both very good teams, but for most of the decade other Ulster counties were decidedly average. Monaghan had a good year or two, Fermanagh had one good run, but other than that Ulster flattered to deceive. The competitive nature of Ulster Championship was more down to Tyrone and Armagh being dragged down into dogfights (although one or other of them still always came out on top) as opposed to other teams being close to their level.

Armagh were always knocking about in the early 00's. Kerry beat them by a goal in a replay. Galway then knocked them out by a point in 2001. Won All Ireland in 2002, while the arguement about what if cosgrove scored the point, I could say what if Marsden wasn't sent off in 2003. What if McConville played (who was not injured) against Fermanagh in 2004, what if Canavan didnt score that last minute point in 2005. 2002 was not all down to luck. Even in the 2002 final Kerry scored 1 point in 20 minutes in the second half against Armagh. As much as people like to use the what if excuse, and I have done in the past it doesnt change a thing.


Transcript for 2002

Armagh v Kerry
Croke Park, Dublin 2002

Before the Game

Pat Spillane (analyst): It's a bit of a clash like Man Utd against Wimbledon - the aristocrats against the dour and dogged. But Wimbledon won a Cup Final!

It's 'Beauty and The Beast', but this beast can play football damn good.

The bottom line is this: if Armagh are positive and take the game to Kerry, I'll tell you this � it's going to be very close out there.

Confidence, but not over confidence, in Kerry.

Michael Lyster (presenter): Armagh are leaving nothing short in their preparations. Colm O'Rourke, they were down here in Dublin the previous two weekends to this over in City West training at the St Mary's club going through their paces, getting familiar with the whole territory down here.

Colum O'Rourke (analyst): That's right, but generally once the whistle sounds at the beginning of a game players revert to old habits and in the end class wins out.

Kerry have skill and speed and athleticism. Armagh have to move up to something like we haven't seen before from them.

Now, I think the biggest advantage in Kerry's favour is the fear of losing. If Kerry were coming in without a fear of losing, there is a danger that they could be over confident. I don't think that that will exist now.

Armagh have been a bit put out, I think, by our criticism here in this studio, paricularly that we haven't given them full credit. Joe Kernan is a good friend of mine and he's a larger than life figure and I think that most neutrals would say it would be fantastic to see Armagh winning an All-Ireland final but we're in the business of cold, ruthless analysis of a game and that's what we're giving.

Michael Lyster (laughing): There's no doubt about that.

Colm O'Rourke: As far as we are concerned, what we have seen from Kerry has been exceptional. What we have seen from Armagh has been good enough to get this far, but they're facing a team completely different in terms of class than they've faced before. Much and all as I would like to say it would be great and I think Armagh would win, I think Kerry are clearly the better team.

Half-Time Discussion
Half-Time Score: Kerry 0-11 Armagh 0-7

Marty Morrisey: Paul Grimley, selector of the Armagh team, disappointed I'm sure that you're not a little bit closer to Kerry considering the missed penalty.

Paul Grimley: Absolutely, Marty, yea. We lost a lot of breaking ball there in the final ten, fifteen minutes of the game. We're having a lot of problems with their runners overlapping us and they are creating problems for us down the middle and down the wings as well. We'll have to deal with it. On top of that, the loss of John McEntee has been a blow to us.

Marty Morrisey: What exactly's wrong with John?

Paul Grimley: He's concussed.

Marty Morrisey: The Kerry full forward line has scored something like 8 out of the 11 points . Is that a major concern?

Paul Grimley: Well, when you are faced with a full-forward line like they have, you have to try and stop the ball getting in to them - which at the minute we're having problems in doing. We'll have to look at that when we go in here.

Marty Morrisey: Tony O'Keefe, are you pleased with the first half performance by Kerry?

Tony O'Keefe : Very pleased, in the sense that were four points up at half-time. Earlier on in the game we looked to be in a small bit of trouble, particularly at midfield. We weren't winning the break. But since we have won the ball and got it in quickly to our full forwards, we are getting the scores. But we're still in a bit of difficulty in our defence.

Of course the penalty save has been crucial so far.

Marty Morrisey: On top right down through the middle, Tony ?

Tony O'Keefe: Well, in mid-field alright. Mid-field, you know, is absolutely crucial to our game. If we keep winning the ball in midfield, I think that we might win the game.

Back in the studio.

Michael Lyster: Colm O'Rourke, I have to say that Armagh look beaten in every division of the field, including in the good looks stakes.

Colm O'Rourke: Yes, and I thought that in the end of that first half Kerry should have really pushed home their advantage because Armagh were like a wounded lion. I was surprised that Kerry didn't just move in for the kill there. A couple of goal chances would have put the game beyond reach.

Armagh have missed the penalty. They're down on their luck and down on their confidence a bit. But they're in serious trouble with their corner backs - particularly if Enda McNulty is not taken off, he'll probably be sent off. He's been fouling Cooper off the ball and Cooper probably should have had more frees.

But Armagh started very well and they were very much in the game. But since you made the point about Donal Daly, I think that's the most valid point. He dominated midfield for most of the first half. And when Dara O'Shea came into it, then he really fired on all cylinders there.

Brosnan is beating McGeeney for pace as I suspected he would - and the bit of class in the Kerry team is beginning to show.

Michael Lyster: Mind you, it started very brightly from both sides of view, Pat. Both teams scored some lovely scores early on?

Pat Spillane: Yes. It was quite an entertaining first half. I would say that, being a Kerry man.

We got some lovely long range points.

But you can see a contrast in styles. Kerry's is worked slow with more inter-passing and then they pop it out to a guy who is in support. And this is the difference.

The Armagh style of play is the long direct ball, turn and shoot. There was a tremendous point by Ronan Clarke from 45 metres out. In fairness to Armagh, they've played the game positively.

But, if there's one simple thing that stands between them - the difference between them - and that's pace. Kerry have the pace. They have the flair.

Armagh, as I said, started like that. Played very well. Played direct. Had the Kerry full-back line in trouble.

But now the Kerry full-back line have started to come to grips a little bit. They're not renowned fielders, but they're breaking the ball a bit more. The Kerry half-back line are supporting them and now Dara O'Shea is coming back as well to mop up. So they're now counteracting that direct ball.

It's been a good first half.

Michael Lyster: To come back to the point you were making, Colm O'Rourke, Kerry could be further ahead if they had got a couple of those goal chances.

Colm O'Rourke: Yes. Well, I suppose Armagh would argue that it could have been closer if they'd scored the penalty.

Michael Lyster: That's true. Yes.

Michael Lyster: Welcome back now to the second half of this All-Ireland final. Kerry are back out on the field. There's still no sign of Armagh, so obviously Paudi O'Shea has just said to the Kerry boys: 'Lads, just keep doing what you're doing.'

Pat Spillane: I can understand that Joe has an awful lot of home truths to tell. I don't think showing that runners-up medal is going to inject any much needed pace or flair, but certainly they have a lot of sorting out to do. As Colm says, they're being beaten in every department of the field. Maybe they've taken too much notice of us critics, because they're playing very, very positive. They're allowing Kerry open up the game. They're not closing it down. Everything they need to do they're not doing.

Michael Lyster: Armagh have got to get a bit of a pattern into their attack, Colm O'Rourke.

Colum O'Rourke: Yea. They were doing very well early on. They were putting all their forwards more or less to stand in the middle. Then, when they get the ball out the field, they split and it's very, very straightforward - kick it down. And they use a lot of cross field passes too which put Seamus Moynihan under pressure at the start with Ronan Clarke. And Michael McCrearty, surprisingly, has been under a good bit of pressure from Stephen McDonnell. But, as the half wore on, Kerry started to get to grips with it and Moynihan won a few balls. That rouses the team and it rouses the crowd.

I think Armagh need to score goals to win. I t looks more likely to me that Kerry will get them because the longer a game goes on the more exposed players with a lack of pace become, and there is a serious lack of pace in the Armagh backline.

Michael Lyster: Well, they're obviously giving it a good discussion at half time. We've heard Paul Grimley, one of their selectors, say that John McEntee - their centre-forward - having to go off was surely a factor too, Pat?

Pat Spillane: He's a good player. There's no doubt about it. He'd just scored a great point. He's playing in the forwards there.

The problem is in the full back line which we've highlighted all year. And the fact that they weren't really exposed up to now doesn't necessarily mean that they were proving us wrong. It's just that the oppositions' full-forward lines weren't exposing them. They're very slow.

Francie Bellew is a very ordinary club footballer, lacking in pace. I swear to God, my mother would be faster than most of those three fellows. And, jeez, she has a little bit of arthritis on the knee.

They're very ... They're very slow. They're very slow ... And that's being polite.

Michael Lyster (laughing): Has Paudi had a look at her lately?

Pat Spillane: Well, I suppose it's very difficult, I mean .. to defend against � because the ball �

As Martin pointed out, Kerry's composure on the ball is brilliant .. Slow it down. Slow it down. Look for the fellow in support. And suddenly there's a quick long ball being played into space �

Maybe Armagh are not coming out at all for the second half, Michael, I wonder?

Michael Lyster: I'm just beginning to wonder if they're bothering about the second half. They're maybe listening to this analysis in the dressing room just to see �

Colm O'Rourke: I think they need to be bringing on a couple of players � certainly with quick foot. The danger for Kerry is that if Kerry sit back. We've always talked in the past about Armagh sitting back. You can't sit back on this pitch because the place is too big. It's too wide. Players with pace will exploit it.

You saw Gerry Adams in the crowd there with his orange colours .. Surprise, surprise .. He could have told the Armagh back line: 'Your problems haven't gone away you know.'

There's no doubt about that. I think that the longer this game goes on, the worse the problems are going to be for Armagh - unless they can get a couple of goals. And Kerry have always looked a bit dodgy, you know, in that department .

Michael Lyster: Gerry Adams is probably saying to himself that his chances of wearing the Antrim colours here in an All-Ireland final are slim enough, I suppose, at the moment. So, he'll certainly wear the Armagh colours. He's supporting, of course, the Northern team.

Full-Time Discussion
Full-Time Score: Armagh 1-12 Kerry 0-14

Colm O'Rourke: It was a victory for pure heart and guts and determination over a team which was technically more accomplished. But Kerry had a soft centre and in the end they were punished for it. A lot of their top players just went out of it totally in the second half.

At one stage in the second half you would have to say that Armagh's chances were gone, but Kerry sat back and what happened in the second half was that they were wiped out completely around the middle of the field. They only scored one point and the top players of Armagh just threw caution to the wind and certainly pushed forward and pushed forward and in the end should have won the game by a bit more.

I have to say I'm glad I was wrong, glad I was wrong. Because, when you'd see those scenes out there, they're just fantastic. I know that Kerry is a great sporting county and they certainly won't begrudge Armagh their first title.

Michael Lyster: They certainly won't. Pat Spillane, being down in the old county (Kerry) last week, I know a lot of people said to me that if Armagh weren't playing Kerry in the final they'd love to see them win it.

Pat Spillane: Absolutely. We've had 32 great Sundays in Croke Park � 32 successes in All-Ireland Finals. We certainly wouldn't � No one would begrudge Armagh victory. And, as Colum said, the scenes out there were magnificent. I'll say this � that it was a victory that they deserved.

There was no fluke about it. The better team won on the day. And, you know, it's not in any manual. It's not in any coaching book at all: appetite, hunger, will-to-win. The team who wanted it most won the game today and that was Armagh.

We'll be slagged off for our analysis at half-time. Our analysis at half-time was quite correct: an inept Armagh performance - a classy Kerry performance.

Whatever Joe said to them at half time he should patent it and bottle it!

Michael Lyster: He took a long time to say it to them, so obviously it was worth saying.

Pat Spillane: Absolutely! But they came out in the second half and they took the game to Kerry. They took the game by the scruff of the neck. McGeeney attacked. He wasn't playing the sweeping role any more They won the battle around the middle of the field.

But Kerry .. They started messing, d'ye know. The composure that was there in the first half was gone. The nice quick ball into the forwards was gone. The laying off the ball to a better placed colleague was gone.

They were kicking � They were aiming for shots from bad angles. They were over-elaborating. They were trying to carry the ball. They were being belted out of it. There was a short little free intercepted. They were just not at the races in the second half.

Three points in the second half! One point from play! They should have been beaten by a lot more!

Michael Lyster: But Armagh still needed the goal, Colum O'Rourke. They still needed the goal. They wouldn't have won this game without it. And it came.

Colum O'Rourke: Yes. Well, I'm going to claim it as the one thing I got right at half-time was that Armagh were going to need a goal to win. And if you were going to look for a player to get it, you'd say Oisin McConville. A brilliant finish! A brilliant finish!

And that sort of put Armagh alight, you know, because they were winning in the middle of the field. Dara O'Shea and Donal Daly went completely out of the game in the second half after dominating the first. Even Seamus Moynihan was giving the ball away with hand passes � kicking the ball up the field.

Kerry's composure just disappeared in the face of this mounting pressure, sheer heart and determination. Armagh just weren't going to surrender. And they were in the best possible position again in that they had to come from behind - because, when they're in front, they always seem to struggle and not know what to do. This time they knew there was nothing but to pour forward, and pour forward and pour forward.

Stephen McDonnell was brilliant and I'd also like to congratulate Diarmid Marsden, a fellow that we've been giving plenty of stick to here. When he really was needed in the second half, he did his job.

And fair play to Joe. Joe is a larger than life character He's a gentleman first and foremost. You know, he's battled hard with Armagh all his life. It's Armagh-orange blood that runs through his veins. He mightn't like it said about him but, you know, he's been the heart and soul of Armagh football - and for him to drag a team that's lost twice in semi-finals and who you would think never would do it � Fair play to him!

Michael Lyster: We didn't know Stephen McDonnell's point was going to be the winning point, but it turned out to be that way. It came a few minutes from the end of this game and this was it for Armagh

Pat Spillane: Stephen McDonnell ... Remember the last time Stephen McDonnell played on Michael McCarthy. It was in the 2000 semi-final and he was replaced. McDonnell was brilliant all day today. Kicked with the right. Kicked with the left. He shows well for the ball. Very, very accurate ... Three points from play.

Look � Ronan Clarke, 19 years of age, who was on Seamus Moynihan - arguably the best full-back in the game - kicked three points from play.

And Diarmid Marsden three points as well.

The full forward line destroyed the Kerry full-back line. Like I said, they deserved to win. Physically strong!

We slagged off the Armagh full-back line. Sure they're bad. Sure they're slow. But if no ball comes into the forwards, they're never going to be exposed. And nothing came into the Kerry fellas in the second half. You can't play without the ball and certainly Kerry didn't have the ball or didn't want to have the ball.

Michael Lyster: There was a lot of emotion. Jarlath Burns was in the BBC commentary box beside us. I thought he was actually going to jump out over the top �I was genuinely worried that he was going to �

Pat Spillane: He was! I mean you saw the raw, raw emotion coming out. I mean this is the years and years of coming down to Croke Park and watching the Kerrys of this world annihilating them and going up with their heads between their legs � saying "next year � next year" and there was never a next year.

So this was brilliant for them.

Do you know the man that made the biggest jump of the whole lot today at the final whistle? Tony Davis! I was very surprised as a neighbour's child to be � But anyway � We'll forgive him that � But elephants never forget!!!

I would give due consideration to the form but in the context of this debate, I would place greater emphasis on the legacy left behind by the players involved in the All-Ireland wins.

So for example, when I look at Kerry, Tyrone and Armagh in the noughties, I see many, many great names.

However, looking at Derry in 1993, Kerry in 1997 or Cork in 2010, there are not as many great footballers, especially in the forwards. That is the crucial thing for me. Although, it's possible Cork are still improving, so we can't make an absolute conclusion about them yet.

GF

Think you've missed the point of my post as well.

Some people are dismissing the current team as lucky, and I don't think it's justified. Armagh had their share of luck in 2002, but were without doubt the best team and deserving champions. My point is that if Cork should get more credit, and not be dismissed as lucky, it's not intended to brand Armagh as lucky.

Every AI winner needs there share of luck at some point in the Championship, I was just using Armagh as an example as to why it's unfair to dismiss this Cork side as lucky.

black&white wrote:GF

Think you've missed the point of my post as well.

Some people are dismissing the current team as lucky, and I don't think it's justified. Armagh had their share of luck in 2002, but were without doubt the best team and deserving champions. My point is that if Cork should get more credit, and not be dismissed as lucky, it's not intended to brand Armagh as lucky.

Every AI winner needs there share of luck at some point in the Championship, I was just using Armagh as an example as to why it's unfair to dismiss this Cork side as lucky.

Im with you on that, I wouldnt brand Cork lucky, thy have been in a few All Ireland finals in the past few years. What I would say about 2010 is that there wasnt the same level of competition as there was in the early to mid 00's. Cork do remind me a little of Armagh and have often said that I would love to see Armagh 2002-2005 playing against the likes of Cork and Kildare today.

I think the problem with Cork is that there's always going to be this idea that they couldn't beat Kerry when it mattered...and unless they can win an All-Ireland and give Kerry a good beating along the way that will always stick. In other words...while they are the All-ireland champions...it will always be said that they froze in front of the green and gold jerseys. The fact that Kerry got knocked out last year has been pointed out as one of the reasons Cork won the All-Ireland. When it comes to Cork 2010 the following will always be said :

-They got beat once again by Kerry
-They stumbled through their qualifier game before being handed the 'easy' draw in the Quarters
-Dublin more or less had them beat only for their indiscipline...Dublin outscored them well from play
-Down also well outscored them from play but again indiscipline allowed Cork to put frees over

Now you can certainly say that because they have been knocking at the door for so long that it's unfair to use just the events of 2010 to brand them poor champions but even though they remain unbeaten by all teams except Kerry for so long the fact is that Kerry are the standard by which all other teams are marked. In other words....winning an All-Ireland by beating Kerry along the way is extra special. That is why the Tyrone team of the 00's will be remembered, and it's why the Down team of the 60's is remembered.

It's a mixture of a lot of things really which just lead me to believe that Cork are probably the worst team to win an All-Ireland for at least a very long time. Their reliance on physicality and free-kicks, the fact they have choked so much but when fortune favoured them in 2010 they just about made it, or the fact that they are most of the time remarkably disorganised for a group of such highly trained athletes. Look back at the first half of the All-Ireland final....they were absolutely woeful....a host of easy chances at the start and they spurned almost every one of them. Just like Dublin the semis, had Down kept their foul count a slight bit lower, they would have won. Free-kick taking is one of the arts of the game yes, and manys a time Ross Carr got Down out of trouble with his kicking...but Cork are quite heavily reliant on it.

So I'll say this about Cork.....on the basis that, in my opinion, they are the worst set of forwards that has ever won an All-Ireland despite having very good free-takers, they are quite some way off the standard set by great teams of the past. Strength and athleticism are very much a part of the game...but it's skill that people want to see....pure football. And that's why this Cork team, unless drastic improvements are made, will be remembered as ...if not the worst....then the least memorable team to have won Sam.