Qualifiers Round 2

Jonsmith if you're going to quote and turn my own 'agenda' against me you should also have read the bit where I wrote "don't talk about Ulster titles....Sam is what it's all about". Let's be honest here....Sam is what it really is all about. All-Ireland titles are what teams are marked by and judged on. As I have already said, I don't think Cavan should be any less proud of their titles than any other county just because they have failed to reach the heights of their past greats. 1994 may as well be 50 years ago but I'm still just as proud of Down's achievement then. If you want to to use provincial titles as a marker fair enough...without trying to be overly political the only thing I would say is that Gaelic games in the '6 counties' didn't get much of a of a look in for prolonged periods. Perhaps the emergence of All-Ireland winning '6 county' teams just before the Troubles and in the tail end of the conflict is no coincidence. But I digress.

As i said, I'm not here to take away from Cavan's success. I never said Down were kingpins of Ulster ...I said 'most people would say' they are. And this is true. The Down team of the 60s were seen as trailblazers...a template for modern football. Many traditionalists at the time resented Down's tactical approach but soon this tactical way of playing became an intrinsic part of the game. The Cavan teams that won 5 All-Irelands are greats, fully deserving of their place among the legends of the game. But the Down teams get talked about a lot more for various reasons; maybe it was the fact that TV was becoming more readily available and more people got to see them play....maybe it was because they were an inspiration for the other 'subjugated' counties in the North...maybe it was their flair and their 'modern' approach....maybe it was the fact they won back-to-back All-Irelands and another one in 1968 in a decade some would consider the most competitive and the went on to win 2 more in a decade where Ulster was at its highest ever peak. Personally I think its a mixture of all these.

Don't take it out on me....anyone who watches GAA coverage knows that the Down teams get talked about a lot more than the Cavan teams. It's not my fault Jonsmith....write a letter to RTE/TG4/BBC and tell them what you think. I would love to see the Cavan teams of old getting the recognition they deserve.

Of course counties are going to boast about their titles, but how does winning an All Ireland in 1994 make Down better than any other team in Ulster? Armagh winning Sam in 2002 means nothing now. However you can't argue that Down are a better team than Armagh when there last meeting Armagh won...You are making excuses by saying Down were not expecting Armagh to play like they did. Essentially McCartan was preparing to lose by thinking Armagh were going to play the defensive game. In no way am I saying not to be proud of your counties achivements but dont be shoving the 5-1 bullshit into peoples faces because they are ridiculous comments to make. Whenever fans do say that I always compare it to the playground arguement - my dad is bigger than your dad.

As for Armagh underachieving I would agree, especially in 2004 when Kernan didnt play McConville. In 2005 though Armagh were beaten by a team they had previously beaten which I have always said is an unfair system. When Down won their titles there was no backdoor system and I will relate this to your point with regards to Armagh fans not wanting to meet Down...I don't! If Armagh played Down again I think Down would win, not because Down are better but beause Down owe Armagh one just like Tyrone owed Armagh one in 2005.

bluearmy1 wrote:Jonsmith if you're going to quote and turn my own 'agenda' against me you should also have read the bit where I wrote "don't talk about Ulster titles....Sam is what it's all about". Let's be honest here....Sam is what it really is all about. All-Ireland titles are what teams are marked by and judged on. As I have already said, I don't think Cavan should be any less proud of their titles than any other county just because they have failed to reach the heights of their past greats. 1994 may as well be 50 years ago but I'm still just as proud of Down's achievement then. If you want to to use provincial titles as a marker fair enough...without trying to be overly political the only thing I would say is that Gaelic games in the '6 counties' didn't get much of a of a look in for prolonged periods. Perhaps the emergence of All-Ireland winning '6 county' teams just before the Troubles and in the tail end of the conflict is no coincidence. But I digress.

As i said, I'm not here to take away from Cavan's success. I never said Down were kingpins of Ulster ...I said 'most people would say' they are. And this is true. The Down team of the 60s were seen as trailblazers...a template for modern football. Many traditionalists at the time resented Down's tactical approach but soon this tactical way of playing became an intrinsic part of the game. The Cavan teams that won 5 All-Irelands are greats, fully deserving of their place among the legends of the game. But the Down teams get talked about a lot more for various reasons; maybe it was the fact that TV was becoming more readily available and more people got to see them play....maybe it was because they were an inspiration for the other 'subjugated' counties in the North...maybe it was their flair and their 'modern' approach....maybe it was the fact they won back-to-back All-Irelands and another one in 1968 in a decade some would consider the most competitive and the went on to win 2 more in a decade where Ulster was at its highest ever peak. Personally I think its a mixture of all these.

Don't take it out on me....anyone who watches GAA coverage knows that the Down teams get talked about a lot more than the Cavan teams. It's not my fault Jonsmith....write a letter to RTE/TG4/BBC and tell them what you think. I would love to see the Cavan teams of old getting the recognition they deserve.

Most people would say that Down are the Kingpins of Ulster?.. I haven't ever met any of these people.

Cavan and Down are equal in terms of All Irelands, and Cavan have 27 more Ulster titles which can't be waved away by claiming that "Sam is what it's all about"...

Down are no doubt a great County, but to claim them as Ulster Kingpins based on the fact that the Down team of the 60's (naturally) gets more media coverage is crazy, just as crazy as your claim about the Down U-21s. Your faith and pride in your county are admirable but you really seem intent on talking Down into being something that they are not.

Agreed JS. Bluearmy really is coming across in a ridiculous manner here, which is a shame for someone who is obviously quite bright.

My personal favourite in his last fairytale was the one about 'people would say that the 60s were the most competitive decade'. Competitive, perhaps, but the standard was poor (just ask Mick O'Dwyer), especially when compared to the 50s or 70s.

I think the greater shame here is the apparent inability of certain people to read and comprehend. It appears that most are determined to somehow claim that, by being a Down man, I somehow want to put Down above Cavan. I actually pointed out that Cavan don't get the credit they deserve and I also pointed out possible reasons why. I didn't say those reasons were totally justifiable.

"Down are no doubt a great County, but to claim them as Ulster Kingpins based on the fact that the Down team of the 60's (naturally) gets more media coverage is crazy" - Again, i never claimed Down were the Ulster kingpins so stop saying that I did. I said it's what a lot of people think...and it really is. And I certainly didn't say it was just because they got more media coverage. Do I believe Down are Ulster kingpins? I think it's better to say that Cavan are without doubt Ulster's most successful county but that the, let's be honest, collapse of that winning tradition has knocked Cavan's reputation. How could anyone disagree? Cavan's haul of provincial titles is hugely impressive but provincial titles are, rightly or wrongly, not what the top counties want. They want All-Ireland titles. It's a difficult situation with Cavan because they have fallen so far from their former greatness.

TC did I say the 60s were the most competitive decade? No. A lot of people do actually consider them to be. Personally I think the 90s were more competitive....obviously the fact that i am an Ulster man and it was a time of huge competition in the province would be a factor in that belief. Standard is open to opinion...but there is no doubt that both the 60s and 90s were pretty competitive.

It's all well and good to write off my 'fairytales' but other posters here have also made points in previous threads that reflect to some extent what I'm saying yet because I am from Down there is an immediate tendency to write off everything I say about my own county as bias. Look at the GAA pedigree thread for example:

"I would say most competitive decade was the 60's. Down, Meath, Dublin, Galway and Kerry won. No, it's not as many winners as the 90's but all the same you had consistently strong teams winning multiple provincial titles and all challenging for All Ireland Honours. You had the Mighty Down and Galway teams, the emergence of a very strong Kerry team including O'Connell, Murphy and Dwyer and then both the Leinster kingpins."

"No one even remembers the Cavan team but the Down teams are still talked about to this day not least because of how they played against Kerry. Anyone will tell you that Down should be higher up that list."

"It was of course Down who set the template, but they like the rest were a result of the 1944 education act.

This allowed many catholics to progress to grammar school and university in the six counties, people who had been excluded before. {Playing McRory and Hogan Cup, and then Sigerson brought on a lot of counties.

Until 1956 only Cavan, Antrim, Monaghan and then Armagh with a miserly 3 titles or so, had won ULSTER.

Tyrone broke through in 1956/57, followed immediately by Derry in 58 and Down in 59. Prior to that the only six county team to have won Ulster during the "Stormont" regime was Antrim." << As you can see I am not the only one who has dared attribute the provincial success of Cavan to the possibilty that the '6 counties' couldn't get a look in with the political climate at the time but because I'm from Down, it must be bias yeah?

Those are some examples of what other people have said that are very similar to what I have pointed out but as soon as I say anything like them the bias patrol are out in force. I have not once said that Down are the Ulster kingpins but I have said they are widely considered to be and this is because the old Cavan teams have not got the recognition they deserve. It is also, undoubtedly, due to the fact that Cavan's fall from their former glory has been so sheer and they haven't really even come close to reclaiming it.

Bluearmy, saying things like 'many people say xyz' and then disassociating yourself from the viewpoint is not how you make a case for something. If you don't agree with things like 'many people would say Down are the kingpins of Ulster' or 'many people would say the 60s were the most competitive decade', then why are you quoting these 'many people' to support your argument?! Don't go peddling viewpoints to support you when it suits, and then casting them aside when you are challenged. How about stating what you think, instead of what 'many people' think.

As for competitiveness, I burst out laughing when you partly disowned the 60s in favour of the 90s, as this was hilariously predictable. Could it be that you are also a big admirer of the 90s as Down won their most recent all-irelands then? Surely not!

As it happens, there was no great Kerry side emerging in the 60s. They had no forwards. O'Dwyer didn't rate Galway much either, although he did have time for Down. Dublin won an all-ireland that is forgotten even by their own fans. I'm not disrespecting what was a brilliant Down side, but perspective is very important in life, and should be easier with the benefit of hindsight (albeit, it seems, not in your case).

But anyway, that is by-the-by, as the real point is that your exaltion of all things red & black really is making a mockery of your otherwise credible posts.

bluearmy1 wrote: It is also, undoubtedly, due to the fact that Cavan's fall from their former glory has been so sheer and they haven't really even come close to reclaiming it.

Yet they last won the Ulster title more recently than Down. Not sure what that says....

So you agree that Cavan, being the most successful county in Ulster, are the Kings of Ulster? Sound. For a man who doesn't believe that Down are Ulster Kingpins you are making a lot of effort in setting out the argument as to why they might be..
Remember bluearmy you shouldn't put too much faith in what the consensus is (or what you think it may be in this case), sure the consensus was that Down were extremely lucky to reach the AI Final last year, that it was a fluke of sorts, it doesn't make it true...

Their first and only Ulster title between 1969 and now TC.

And I did say what I think. I said it was a difficult situation because while Cavan had won so much it cannot be forgotten that one provincial title in 40 odd years is a damaging statistic on Cavan's reputation. So while the question of 'best county in the province' elsewhere is a bit clearer it is more difficult to address it in Ulster because you have Cavan who have won so much but have failed to ever come close to the heights of their glory days while Down were more dominant in the latter half of the century. As well as this you also have Tyrone who will have aspirations to the label in the future. Is this an exaltation of all things red and black?

Your reaction to my opinion that the 90s were competitive is just as predictable TC. So despite the fact that 8 different counties won All-Irelands in the 90s, my belief that it was the most competitive decade can only be due to the fact that Down were among those winners? I have to say, I managed a chuckle there myself.

And again TC, I must insist on a bit of comprehension...the only reason I talked about a consensus on the issue was not to avoid making a point of my own....I was making the point that Cavan's rich history does not get the credit it deserves (how many times do I have to say this?). So when I say 'a lot of people say...' and when I talk about the recognition Down teams get I have also made sure to mention the fact that it is a shame that Cavan's achievements have . TC, as someone with an obvious wide knowledge of Gaelic football, you will know surely that Down's successes have been afforded a lot more publicity and coverage than Cavan's which would inherently lead a lot of people to regard Down as Ulster's traditional power while, apart from the Polo Grounds, people have been given little reason to give any credit to Cavan's success. This is a shame!

But now I suppose I will listen to the same old thing...me being biased despite giving Cavan's past more credit in the space of a few posts than anyone in the media will do all year. Jonsmith, you have every reason to say that Cavan are Ulster's kingpins...but I too have strong reason to put Down alongside them because when it comes to the last 50 years then you can't look past Down. Perhaps Tyrone will someday challenge too. This is not me dividing up the history of the GAA as I see fit but the fall of the Cavan star has been so pronounced, for such a long period of time and with no sign of it coming back in the near future, that it's hard to place them way ahead at the top.

Hopefully though we'll win a sixth All-Ireland soon and put it beyond doubt

Lads do you not read the gospel according to Patrique??? Antrim are the undisputed Kingpins of Ulster they have hundreds of Ulster titles and only last week recorded 10 in a row!!!!! So you can forget your Cavans and your Downs and even Tyrone, add all their titles together and you still wouldnt come within an arses roar of Antrim - case closed.

Seriously though lads i think everyone is making some valid points and i think some of the points being picked out of Bluearmys posts are a bit unfair - he has several times attempted to give Cavan due credit for their record in Ulster and beyond. And their are people out there who consider Down to be the kingpins of Ulster, but in many cases thats only because they hear it so often in the media, the same people probably dont even realise jsut how many Ulster titles Cavan have!!!!

Being a Down man is Bluearmy not entitled to think more of the Down men in the same way JS would argue Cavan are the more successful county.

Bluearmy - you talk much sense -but your posts are too long. Only Jayo can do long posts and retain interest ...

bocerty wrote: Being a Down man is Bluearmy not entitled to think more of the Down men in the same way JS would argue Cavan are the more successful county.

Of course he is entitled to think it Boc, but it doesn't mean that he is right. And equally so, the rest of us are entitled to point out if we think he is wrong.

Thomas Clarke wrote:

bocerty wrote: Being a Down man is Bluearmy not entitled to think more of the Down men in the same way JS would argue Cavan are the more successful county.

Of course he is entitled to think it Boc, but it doesn't mean that he is right. And equally so, the rest of us are entitled to point out if we think he is wrong.

he thinks he is right TC, you happen to think he is wrong. Who is right??????? Do you get the nod because your older and wiser (allegedly) and is Bluearmys posts taken less seriously because he is only a cub????

I don't think Bluearmy is a cub at all Boc?

Jayo Cluxton wrote:I don't think Bluearmy is a cub at all Boc?

you think the poSts are too wise for one so young JC

I think he has said he is watching Down football for a long time now and his posts bear that out. Think he is more 40 than 14.

bocerty wrote:

Jayo Cluxton wrote:I don't think Bluearmy is a cub at all Boc?

you think the poSts are too wise for one so young JC

It is possible for one to be young and wise, you know.

Bluearmy thoroughly enjoys the speculation about his age!

He can also reveal that he is still a student .....



...the plot thickens

bluearmy1 wrote:Bluearmy thoroughly enjoys the speculation about his age!

He can also reveal that he is still a student .....



...the plot thickens

Mature student?

He could be like you GF - doing psychology when he's 92 ....

I reckon he's around the 40 mark from what I've read - 38 to 42 at a guess.

Jayo Cluxton wrote:He could be like you GF - doing psychology when he's 92 ....

I reckon he's around the 40 mark from what I've read - 38 to 42 at a guess.

I think im with Bocerty on this one. I am going to go for 17-21

Still an active player at senior level.


At the ripe old age of __ I think it's quite an achievement ;-)

Bluearmy can also reveal that he lives on a farm......

There's farms in Down..?

bluearmy1 wrote:Still an active player at senior level.


At the ripe old age of __ I think it's quite an achievement ;-)

Bluearmy can also reveal that he lives on a farm......

Jaysus boss - great clues!! You live on a farm!! Now how TF is that helping us?? Sure we can't even look up tax returns ....

I remember your first post, you were with another colemans poster. I would hazard a guess and say that you are at university, possibly QUB and are a fan of cider and just a few months short of 21.