Noughties not nice

There has been a lot of talk about standards in GAA and the fact that Kerry and Tyrone are 'coming back to the pack'. A good analogy there in the 4 minute 1,500 final - an exciting finish but a poor standard - fair enough comment.

And the more I think about the Noughties the more I agree. Dominated by Kerry and Tyrone - definitely the two best sides - with Armagh and Cork the next best. But were they great sides - or was the standard of the rest just *****? Maybe Kerry and Tyrone (at their best) were doing 4 minute 1500s - but the rest were at 4 mins 10 seconds.

Lokking closely at the Kerry team there are genuine greats there. Gooch a match for any era - the O'Se's (all three) pure class. Throw in Galvin, Mc Carthy and one or two others (Dec O'S on his day) and you have fine players - but also a lot of ordinary lads. Tyrone had (have) some class too - O'Neill amazing, Dooher a legend, a fit and able Canavan supreme. Sean C inconsistent but class - like BMcG - and you could name 2 or three others. After that you have a lot of guys who are better than average players with 2/3 Celtic crosses - but not legends and never will be (outside Tyrone).

Kerry fans will not compare many on the team of the 00s to previous vintage, despite their relative success, thats the reality. And the fact that they never mastered Tyrone will add to that. Tyrone will laud and eulogise those players - naturally. But the great Tyrone team of 2008 (to me their best team) have not kicked on. SON, SC and others have regressed - as shown by their subsequent defeats to Cork and Dublin. Great sides would not have lost to (as the Tyrone secretary put it) ordinary sides.

And the more I think about it the more I am inclined to come around to the likes of TC and others views. The standards have been very low. Dublin won 5 Leinsters in a row and nearly annexed Sam when they didn't. Meath got to semis and quarters with very poor teams. Mayo and Galway similarly. Wexford got to a semi - beating Armagh - a poor Donegal team appeared in Croker. Cork, the decade's chokers finally landed Sam playing their worst football over 5 years for the whole of their winning season.

I think hindsight will show the 00s to be the poorest of times - dominated by a few teams running 4 minute (and slightly plus) 1,500s. Cork were the Grand Prix winning team - being successful when it didn't really matter. Tyrone and Kerry (Armagh earlier in the decade) were doing 4m 04/5s - the rest were at 4m 10/20s. When the romance of the history of some of the finals has died, cold light of day analysis and revisionism will show exciting and tough games and innovative strategies but not much else.

It is up to the likes of Dublin, Galway, and even the likes of Mayo to raise the bar. It is not good enough to have apparently 'caught up with' Tyrone and Kerry - ordinary enough sides in their time as outlined above. Cork's win (and the manner of it) this year really puts it all in perspective. The bar must be raised higher and the upcoming teams must do that. Not to match what has been fairly mediocre and negative fare (though exciting at times) but to raise the game to newer heights. To bring back the best attributes the game has to offer and to succeed on those terms. As a Dub I am hopeful we are getting there.

El Guerroj ran 3 minutes 26 seconds flat. I'd say the Kerry team of the noughties are to Gaelic Football as El Guerroj is to the 1500m. Tyrone, I suppose are Lagat at his best.

Down team of the 60s, Kerry team of the 70s and Meath team of the 80s are probably in the Coe, Ovett and Cram bracket. Streets ahead in an area when people thought 3 minutes 30 seconds was fast. But time takes it a new level. And most of the pack now run 3 minutes 30 off a decent pace, but Kerry and Tyrone can run it 3mins 26.

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:El Guerroj ran 3 minutes 26 seconds flat. I'd say the Kerry team of the noughties are to Gaelic Football as El Guerroj is to the 1500m. Tyrone, I suppose are Lagat at his best.

Down team of the 60s, Kerry team of the 70s and Meath team of the 80s are probably in the Coe, Ovett and Cram bracket. Streets ahead in an area when people thought 3 minutes 30 seconds was fast. But time takes it a new level. And most of the pack now run 3 minutes 30 off a decent pace, but Kerry and Tyrone can run it 3mins 26.

What about the Galway team of the 60's, the dubs in the 70s (themselves and Kerry raised the bar each rubbing of each other)

the kerry team of the early to mid 80s the cork team of the late 80s and the galway team of the late 90s early 00s but then loyal does not really have a clue about sport

hipster 2 wrote:the kerry team of the early to mid 80s the cork team of the late 80s and the galway team of the late 90s early 00s but then loyal does not really have a clue about sport

Nor do you, if you think that those are the 3 best sides we have seen. You could argue that none of them would even be in the top 10, although Kerry early-mid 80s would probably scrape in there.

Loyal is right in the point that he makes about time moving on. Tyrone and Kerry of the last 7-8 years would have demolished, to use Jim's example, the Galway 3-in-a-row side. Fitness/conditioning levels and preparations have moved on so much that it would have been an absolute rout. The pick of the great Kerry sides of the late 20s and early 40s would be beaten by 20-30 points by the current team, yet both of those teams may have been greater than Jack O'Connor's side.

All we can try to do is speculate how teams, had they been in the same era, and had they had the same training/conditioning methods available, may have done against each other.

As for JC, I'm not sure how my name got dragged into that post, as I'd disagree with virtually all of it (perhaps there was a hook dangled out there? ).

Thomas Clarke wrote:

hipster 2 wrote:the kerry team of the early to mid 80s the cork team of the late 80s and the galway team of the late 90s early 00s but then loyal does not really have a clue about sport

Nor do you, if you think that those are the 3 best sides we have seen. You could argue that none of them would even be in the top 10, although Kerry early-mid 80s would probably scrape in there.

Loyal is right in the point that he makes about time moving on. Tyrone and Kerry of the last 7-8 years would have demolished, to use Jim's example, the Galway 3-in-a-row side. Fitness/conditioning levels and preparations have moved on so much that it would have been an absolute rout. The pick of the great Kerry sides of the late 20s and early 40s would be beaten by 20-30 points by the current team, yet both of those teams may have been greater than Jack O'Connor's side.

All we can try to do is speculate how teams, had they been in the same era, and had they had the same training/conditioning methods available, may have done against each other.

As for JC, I'm not sure how my name got dragged into that post, as I'd disagree with virtually all of it (perhaps there was a hook dangled out there? ).

Thats rubbish what top 10 teams have you seen....

mullins wrote: Thats rubbish what top 10 teams have you seen....

Ah, Mullins again, dashing in with a random one-liner.

Here's a suggestion: Why don't you read the post, type a counter argument (to whichever bit is 'rubbish'), and then maybe I will respond. You should try that, even once, instead of salivating at the very sight of my username, like some over-excited schoolboy in the midst of his first bike-shed fumble.

Thomas Clarke wrote:

mullins wrote: Thats rubbish what top 10 teams have you seen....

Ah, Mullins again, dashing in with a random one-liner.

Here's a suggestion: Why don't you read the post, type a counter argument (to whichever bit is 'rubbish'), and then maybe I will respond. You should try that, even once, instead of salivating at the very sight of my username, like some over-excited schoolboy in the midst of his first bike-shed fumble.

Don't flatter yourselve Tc your not that important in the context of things.Afterall its only your opinion..

Tyrone and Kerry of the last 7-8 years would have demolished, to use Jim's example, the Galway 3-in-a-row side.

Would this be the same Tyrone team that failed to beat Mayo ,Laois,Cork,in the 00s

Lets not forget sligo mullins lol

I think the noughties was good better than its getting credit for on here, i think that ever decade brings something new, ie defence football was this era the nineties was the hand passing game bring on the teenies.

TC what are you on about how can you say that this tyrone or kerry team can beat them teams i said i just pointed out the teams that loyal also forgot about and for you to say the kerry team of the 80s would scrape in is total bull and you just proved with that point how misguided and the lack of knowledge you have about the game is very very limited .

North Side Gael wrote: the nineties was the hand passing game bring on the teenies.

I take it you've never seen re-runs of the '70s games then, nor read about the great, shame on you, Antrim side of the 1940s.

Lads, you obviously are missing the point here. Are the 3 of you actually telling me that Galway of the 1960s would get within 20 points of Kerry of Tyrone of today? Or even Cork this year?

The game would be competitive for 20 minutes, but the fitness levels would result in a cricket score by the end. Time moves on. Now, to stress again, if that Galway side had been able to train with modern day techniques, then things would have been very different.

North Side Gael wrote:Lets not forget sligo mullins lol

I think the noughties was good better than its getting credit for on here, i think that ever decade brings something new, ie defence football was this era the nineties was the hand passing game bring on the teenies.

Yes NSG put that was pre 03

hipster 2 wrote:for you to say the kerry team of the 80s would scrape in is total bull and you just proved with that point how misguided and the lack of knowledge you have about the game is very very limited .

By the mid-80s that Kerry side was getting through mainly on experience. They were not the side that they were in the late '70s, and that has been commented on by many of their stars, including Spillane. They had flashes of brilliance, but were nowhere near the force that they were c.1979, for instance, when they were incomparable. In the '80s they were still great side, but probably no better than 8-9 other great sides we have seen.

Thomas Clarke wrote:

hipster 2 wrote:for you to say the kerry team of the 80s would scrape in is total bull and you just proved with that point how misguided and the lack of knowledge you have about the game is very very limited .

By the mid-80s that Kerry side was getting through mainly on experience. They were not the side that they were in the late '70s, and that has been commented on by many of their stars, including Spillane. They had flashes of brilliance, but were nowhere near the force that they were c.1979, for instance, when they were incomparable. In the '80s they were still great side, but probably no better than 8-9 other great sides we have seen.

TC that Kerry team that started in 75,still had half that team in 86 ,maybe they did finish up winning with experience getting them over the line,but that should not tarnish what they were ,I would say that they were the best team i have ever seen...As for Galway 63-66, its impossible to compare like with like with the modern game..

mullins wrote:

Thomas Clarke wrote:

hipster 2 wrote:for you to say the kerry team of the 80s would scrape in is total bull and you just proved with that point how misguided and the lack of knowledge you have about the game is very very limited .

By the mid-80s that Kerry side was getting through mainly on experience. They were not the side that they were in the late '70s, and that has been commented on by many of their stars, including Spillane. They had flashes of brilliance, but were nowhere near the force that they were c.1979, for instance, when they were incomparable. In the '80s they were still great side, but probably no better than 8-9 other great sides we have seen.

TC that Kerry team that started in 75,still had half that team in 86 ,maybe they did finish up winning with experience getting them over the line,but that should not tarnish what they were ,I would say that they were the best team i have ever seen...As for Galway 63-66, its impossible to compare like with like with the modern game..

It still had 5 of them Mullins - Paudi, Ogie, Sheehy, Spillane and Power. Personally, I don't think of the Kerry 3 in a row side as being remotely as good as when they were all young and flying (78-81). They were still brilliant, but it was a different team, and a different style of playing (handpassing became 'kick and catch').

As for Galway, that is the point that I made above. We can only speculate, but the reality, in all physical sports, is that the best of the 60s would not beat the best of the noughties without different training/conditioning. But that doesn't mean that the older generation weren't greater, or more dominant in their own time.

yes TC the same way the tyrone team look to be past it and to compare them to the galway team well any three in a row team in any era are a great team , and of course kerry and tyrone would slaughter them as they are all in their 70s now even our junior d team would beat them remember time waits for no man

Its a pretty pointless argument to say that the current teams would not run through the teams of yesteryear, but given the same resources for training same knowledge etc, it may well be a different story, id say the teams would have very close fought contests.

Personally I prefer the Galway 63/66 team above all other, probably on the basis of being a Connacht man. They were the early trail blazers in having two attack minded wing backs which in it's time was a novelty as it broke from the mould of "backs are there to defend"..The had a dogged and unspectacular midfield whose sole function was to gain primary possession and let it on. Their forwards were somewhat unique in that on most days all would make the scoresheet.
However the Kerry 4 in a row team were the best that I've seen. Man for man, pound for pound they appear to have had it all. Pace, scoring ability, teak tough defenders and as the team evolved with the arrival of Liston changing systems. There was no whinging when they got a belt, just take it, give it back and move on.

The past decade has thrown up Tyrone and Kerry, good, almost great teams. But the game has changed, with tactical battles being waged in the media, on the sideline and on the pitch. The game has evolved yet again and become a possession contest, taken from the soccerball no doubt. It's less of a spectacle, overladen with negativity, a touch of cynacism here and there and inconsistent refeering which is not helped by Croke Park. The carry-on of the Leinster Council in the aftermath of the Leinster final shows what a bunch of clowns are at the levers of power there.

I liked Galway the most, but Kerry 78/81 were the best.....ye' can fill in the bronze medallist yourselves but the noughties did not improve the game as a spectacle.

On Sunday night one of our company said that Antrim would never make a final in his life time. This was a young lad.

I asked him to look closely at what Antrim currently have on paper, compared to Down, who just made a final. Personally I wouldn't be rushing to the bookies to put money on Down to beat Antrim.

So, as I have said for a number of years, a totally dedicated panel, with two scoring forwards, one of whom can be a free taker, will take you far, maybe to a final. You need more to win it.

Take Antrim again. Sean Kelly, aged 28 and arguably better than anything Down or many others could offer as a half back has "retired" from county football. He has hardly played any, due in some part to injury, but it does not indicate a 2dedicated" panel. Throw in our current "star2 lads from the same family, and you see the problem. But given those three, and Paddy Cunningham who can kick frees all day but is not rated in Antrim as a player, and you would be able to compete.

That is why Meath, fermanagh, Sligo and others have done well in the last load of years, especially with a back door, and it is great to see the interest in those counties when they get on a run.

The Kerry/Tyrone teams of recent vintage? I would agree with much of what Jayo said. Tyrone had an all time great in Canavan, and an excellent talent in O'Neill, and a few other very good lads. I think 2008 was simply a shock win, and they reached the top in 2005. In the 5 years since their record has not been great, bar the shock win in 08.

Kerry had all time greats in Gooch, and maybe two O'Se lads, and a few other excellent players. Booth sides had weaknesses as well however, and would not be in my list of all time great teams.

But that is MY list.

Jayo's argument falters when he takes Tyrone's 2008 win as peak. While I would disagree with Patrique's overall assessment of Tyrone/Kerry in the noughties as not being great, he is correct when he says that Tyrone did not peak in 2008. They were well on the slide by that stage, and really only clicked once that year, in beating the Dubs. I've always believed that Tyrone were at their most dominant in 2003, although you could argue 2005. Likewise, Kerry were also at their peak around that period, or just after, and have fallen back post 2006.

Between 2003-2006 Tyrone and Kerry had some fabulous footballers, many who whom would have graced sides in any era. The football was fast and, with a few exceptions, exciting, and huge scores were racked up by both sides. Jayo says that few Kerry players in the last decade would have made Kerry sides of the past, but I would argue that at least 5-6 of them would have made any of Mick O'Dwyer's Kerry sides, and 2-3 more would have made any other side you can think of. Tyrone, too, had 6-7 players who would push for a place on any side that I have seen or read about, again with the possible exception of Kerry '78-81.

Tyrone won 3 all irelands in 6 years - the only other sides outside of Kerry to have done that are Dublin (74-77), Galway (64-66) and Wexford's 4 in a row side. 3 All-Irelands for any side, particularly in a competitive era is very impressive. Kerry's consistency in making every all-ireland semi final for 10 years, and winning 5 finals, is incredible.

I consider Armagh in the noughties to have been the best measuring stick. I think that they were a side who would have won 2-3 all irelands in most other eras, and were prevented from doing this by 2 great teams. By way of comparison, I'd say that Armagh were a better side than Cork in the late '80s.

So, for me, 2 great sides in the noughties, and one very, very good side - not a bad decade in my book, even if the standard has fallen in the last 3-4 years.

I possiby see 2008 side a little differently given that pasting they gave us - they were awesome that evening!

That aside some good points here. One of the main thrusts of my argument though is the poor standards among the rest of the counties. The Dubs were Leinster champs for most of the decade and were still well short of winning Sam. Connaught was poor enough for the most part (please do not suggest Mayo) - and is worse now. Ulster was competitive and hard and dominated by Tyrone and Armagh. Munster - despite brief glimmers of hope for Limerick - was dominated by the usual two.

So after Tyrone and Kerry you had Cork there or thereabouts and Armagh in the first half of the decade. So were these really great sides or was football so poor elsewhere that they really mostly had it to themselves? Tyrone's 3 in 6 years is a great achievement no doubt but they may have been a little lucky in that they had a good enough side when standards and teams elsewhere were shocking. And there is no way 6/7 of their players would get anywhere near my top 15 - 2 maybe with a mention for a third.

The noughties (worryingly) saw a huge demise in standards in what were 'traditional' GAA powers - Offaly nowhere, Kildare (only after Geezer), Down, Cavan - further into the abyss, hardly a peep out of Galway. You had very average teams in quarters and semis too. Not sure it was the best ten years ever tbh.

Jayo Cluxton wrote:I possiby see 2008 side a little differently given that pasting they gave us - they were awesome that evening!

That aside some good points here. One of the main thrusts of my argument though is the poor standards among the rest of the counties. The Dubs were Leinster champs for most of the decade and were still well short of winning Sam. Connaught was poor enough for the most part (please do not suggest Mayo) - and is worse now. Ulster was competitive and hard and dominated by Tyrone and Armagh. Munster - despite brief glimmers of hope for Limerick - was dominated by the usual two.

So after Tyrone and Kerry you had Cork there or thereabouts and Armagh in the first half of the decade. So were these really great sides or was football so poor elsewhere that they really mostly had it to themselves? Tyrone's 3 in 6 years is a great achievement no doubt but they may have been a little lucky in that they had a good enough side when standards and teams elsewhere were shocking. And there is no way 6/7 of their players would get anywhere near my top 15 - 2 maybe with a mention for a third.

The noughties (worryingly) saw a huge demise in standards in what were 'traditional' GAA powers - Offaly nowhere, Kildare (only after Geezer), Down, Cavan - further into the abyss, hardly a peep out of Galway. You had very average teams in quarters and semis too. Not sure it was the best ten years ever tbh.

I wouldn't get too hung up on the semi finalists, as the backdoor system was always going to give rise to some shocks that wouldnt have been possible in other times. Look at the finalists - Tyrone/Armagh/Kerry/Galway - all very good sides, with only Mayo in 2004 being poor. Remember, weak Tyrone & Mayo sides made finals in the 90s, Roscommon in the 80s, Armagh in the 70s....

As for Tyrone, the difference in 2003 and 2008 were the forwards. In 2003 it was Dooher, McGuigan, Cavlan, McGinley, Canavan & Mugsy, with Cavanagh pushing from midfield, and O'Neill off the bench. There was serious firepower there compared to 2008 (Dooher, Tommy McGuigan, Joey McMahon, McCullough, Cavanagh & Penrose).

Not sure if explained what I meant properly when I said 6-7 would make any side that I can think of, except Kerry 78-81. What I meant was that at least 6-7 would make, for example, a combined side with Dublin 76-77, Kerry 04-07, or most other sides that you can think of. A lot will disagree, but I think that Jordan, Gormley, McMenamin, Cavanagh, O'Neill, Dooher, McGuigan and Canavan would push for inclusion on those sides, while McAnallen, the McMahons, Harte, Cavlan, McGinley & Mugsy were all very good as well. I really don't see many average players there, as Patrique would have us believe.

I dont think that the '00s were poor. Dublin were a very good side c.05-07, in my opinion they were as talented, if not moreso, that the early '90s Dublin side, except the perhaps lacked a bit of leadership when it mattered. Still though, Dublin were a very good side on their day at that stage. In any era, though, do you have more than 2-3 very good sides at once? Did it happen in the late '70s (Kerry, Dublin and ?) or the late '80s (Cork/Meath) or even for most of the 60s, when Down dominated before fading away, and Galway had little opposition (even Mick O'Dwyer has never been forgiven in Galway for holding this view).

The 50s seems to have been a genuinely strong and competitive era, but was that because it lacked one or 2 superteams? At the end of the day, it is all a matter of opinions, but I think that we saw a very good era of football in the first half of the noughties, and would rate it as strong as any in the last 30 years.

in the old days you lost you were out i believe cork had a very good team in the 70s and offaly and meath there was no back door crap that is why it was a better championship played at a great pace none of this crap we get today . and as for roscommon one of my friends played for them against kerry in the final and he would see that as a huge insult for you to call them average

Well you will see it through rose tinted spectacles - as you are absolutely entitled to do - and rightly so! Personally, I didn't like the way football was going for much of the 00s and some of the stuff in the early to mid part of the decade did not float my boat. Tyrone have had some fine players - many you listed - but a good few of those names did not do it consistently - and I would have to include McGuigan in that (though injuries did him no favours, Cavanagh was awesome a couple of years back but has become a pretty ordinary player in recent seasons, McMenamin while a player I would like to have in my team would not grace any 'best of' selection - nor Harte either.

Dublin 05-09 wouldn't be a great yardstick. They were a fine team in Leinster but managed to get hockied on a couple of occasions outside it. Had they turned up in those games in a similiar vein of form that saw them dismantle so many of their provincial counterparts, they'd probably be more than just "well short of winning Sam".

McDonald-led Mayo were enough of a force due to the aforementioned McDonald. Cork and Armagh produced had their moments and for a period in 2007, Meath produced flashes of grandeur. Derry put in some sterling All-Ireland winning performances in early February too!!!!

The chasing pack were not all that average and if we take Cork this year as being your typical All-Ireland winning team, then you could certainly argue that some above-average teams existed in the same era as Kerry and Tyrone.