Time for change in Tyrone?

**RMDrive** Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:06 pm

An interesting article by Colm O'Rourke in the Sindo about whether it's time for the Tyrone old guard to be put out to pasture.

By Colm O'Rourke

Sunday March 21 2010

With three games to go in the league before clubs get to see their players again, the picture is becoming somewhat clearer. The momentum associated with new managers is evident with Armagh and Down, who will be formidable forces in Ulster this year. On the other hand, Joe Kernan has found that his new life in Galway is something less than a bed of roses. And if Michael Meehan does not recover quickly, it could get a whole lot worse.
The argument continues then: does a manager make a good team or does a good team make a manager? The diplomatic answer, and probably the right one, is that it is a bit of both, although without a good management set-up, a group of players certainly won't make it -- however talented they may be.

The biggest problem any successful manager has is knowing when to jettison those who may have played a leading role in winning past titles. Mickey Harte is in that position now. He, like every one else in a similar situation, has a loyalty issue. Does he stick with the tried and trusted or is it time for the night of the long knives? Managers sometimes lie awake and wonder about teams that were picked and games that were lost, but there is nothing to compare with the decisions on getting rid of loyal warriors. A successful team is like a family. There are occasional rows but great sides do their housekeeping quietly. Yet nothing prepares a leading player for the time when the manager has to tell him, "thanks for everything but it is over".

To make it worse, most players don't see it coming. They are always the worst judges of their own decline. When the great Kerry team were on their last legs, literally, there was a telling shot of the Kingdom's subs bench in a Munster final which was full of multiple All-Ireland winners. All yearning for one more roar of the crowd. But the train had left the station. It took over a decade for another great side to emerge, but with Tommy Walsh, Darragh ó Sé, Michael McCarthy and others unavailable, Kerry will find it easier to rebuild, bringing in new players like David Moran, Anthony Maher, Kieran O'Leary and David O'Callaghan. With the team playing well and winning, the transition is smoother too.

Contrast that with Tyrone. All the old soldiers are on parade but even allowing for a win over Cork last weekend, there are cracks appearing. On closer examination, that win is not what it appears. There is sometimes a difference between the performance and the result. A really good performance usually gets a win and, vice versa, if you play badly you normally lose. Looking at last Saturday night's game there was a difference in this case between the performance and the result. On the long journey home, Cork must have wondered how they played so well for so long and still got mugged. They can live with that.

The chances are that they will still end up in the league final as they look like the best team in the country just now. A loss like this is a valuable lesson: when on top you have to be ruthless. Cork are not.
All Cork need is the ability to score a couple of goals when controlling a game to turn possession into a rout. Cork had plenty of the ball but left Tyrone hanging on long enough for the dying sting. Old heads never lose the ability to smash and grab.

Yet the dilemma for Mickey Harte remains. Will he whisper in the ear of Ryan McMenamin, Conor Gormley, Owen Mulligan, Ryan Mellon, Davy Harte, Philip Jordan or Kevin Hughes? Men
who have served with him for half a lifetime. Or maybe he thinks that for these men it will be like the bad dress rehearsal that turns out alright on the night and they will still lead the charge.
The greatest test of management is managing change. That is why I find managing at colleges level relatively easy. Change comes every year and there are few really hard decisions. One group leaves school to be replaced by another.

Mickey Harte, who does not go around taking bites out of stone walls, has no such luxury. Soon he has to start a championship match with some or all of Kyle Coney, Niall McKenna, Sean O'Neill, Raymond Mulgrew, Aidan Cassidy and Colm Cavanagh. And there are probably a lot of other successful minors waiting in the wings as well. The present squad may not be old but players age in different ways and footballers don't grow old gracefully. They just get exposed.

So by far the most fascinating study in management this year will be Tyrone. A lot of hungry young players who care nothing for reputations are banging on the door. For Mickey Harte, getting by without Peter Canavan was fairly straightforward compared with deciding the right time to move on some of his greatest servants. And there is no nice way to tell them when that time comes.

**Thomas Clarke** Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:14 pm

[quote="RMDrive"] A lot of hungry young players who care nothing for reputations are banging on the door. [quote]

While there are some fair points in the article, and Mickey is being too faithful to certain players, the above statement is completely wrong. O'Rourke is generalising, and obviously knows little about the quality of the Tyrone panel beyond the big names.

Tyrone do not have 'a lot of hungry young players who care nothing for reputations banging on the door'. If they did, they would have been making the side for the last few years. The reality, as I tried to illustrate in another thread last week, is that we don't have the players coming through, certainly not players who are considerably better than those who are currently in the positions. Change is needed, but it is difficult when nobody is sticking their hand up demanding a jersey.

**mullins** Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:16 pm

I was in croke pk in 80-81 to say goodbye to one of the greatest Dublin teams of all time after a league match...Problem was should probably have said goodbye to them in 78.......

A blind man could see that this tyrone team are finished.. Time for change in Tyrone? Fresse

**redhandman** Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:44 am

i must be blind then as i still think that when the turf hardens and cavanagh and oneill are back playing full matches likewise philly jordan and enda mcginely we wont be that far off - kerry have lost 1/3 of a team we only need slight surgery to be up there again and with coney mckenna sean red oneill we have a few men ready for that push. i think anyway but sure what do i know about football!

that all said i still wouldnt like relegation....

**joan_balantine** Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:58 pm

old heads are all very well but you need boys that will run themselves into the ground week in week out. 20/21/22 year olds will do that 28/29/30 year olds are less likely.

**patrique** Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:23 am

Cavanagh was poor last year, and O'Neill was a disaster in the Ulster final against antrim. I personally cannot imagine O'neill being scoreless against antrim when he was a footballer.

The injuries have been cruel to him. Cavanagh to me has it all, but sometimes seems to lack something from being the complete package.

And age is catching up on others.

N I don't see Tyrone as a real threat this year, despite it being more open. Last year Tyrone were untouchable in Ulster, this year about 4 sides could cause them trouble. those 4 have improved slightly, but Tyrone have declined and come back into the peloton.

**Jayo Cluxton** Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:59 am

I expect Antrim to show well again this year, you never know with Derry, Down seem to be on the up, Monaghan, again, you never know but I think Armagh are on the wane. Donegal I think are still a good bit short of a serious challenge.

**joan_balantine** Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:50 am

i dont think anyone can argue that at times that tyrone team look tired mentally and physically. when you compare them to cork its like a before and after. if cork dont win the AI this year itll be a travesty.

**Jayo Cluxton** Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:06 pm

joan_balantine wrote:if cork dont win the AI this year itll be a travesty.

Hardly a travesty JB. Last year they should have been beaten by Limerick. At times though they looked great but its all about the 3rd Sunday in September.

**Armaghgeddon** Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:29 pm

Jayo Cluxton wrote: but I think Armagh are on the wane.

You made this judgement on Saturday?

Armagh cant get any worse than that. They were coming back into the game on Saturday untill when Moriarity was sent off, if he stayed on it would have been a close game. Also remember, Down have peaked, Armagh havent.

**Jayo Cluxton** Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:33 pm

No - have made it over the last 3/4 seasons tbh. I don't read anything into 'league' football.

Guest Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:38 pm

Jayo Cluxton wrote:No - have made it over the last 3/4 seasons tbh. I don't read anything into 'league' football.

out of curiousity how did you come of the opinion that "on our day we are capable of beating anyone" when you were talking about the dubs a couple of weeks ago?

Are you getting carried away with the dubs run in the league or were you basing that opinion on something the dubs have done in championship football over the past three or four years? (like getting stuffed anytime they meet a non leinster county)

**Jayo Cluxton** Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:22 pm

samin10 wrote:
Jayo Cluxton wrote:No - have made it over the last 3/4 seasons tbh. I don't read anything into 'league' football.

out of curiousity how did you come of the opinion that "on our day we are capable of beating anyone" when you were talking about the dubs a couple of weeks ago?

Are you getting carried away with the dubs run in the league or were you basing that opinion on something the dubs have done in championship football over the past three or four years? (like getting stuffed anytime they meet a non leinster county)

FFS some very touchy people on here. I am well aware we have been stuffed in the last two QFs - by two awesome performances by the two best teams in the country in the Noughties - no real shame. Over the last 5 years we have put in some very good performances though. Yes some people will say only in Leinster but without being picky in 2008 we did beat Wexford by 23 points who went on to beat Armagh by 5 points. I still think Tyrone and Kerry hit top gear against us and if we had hit top gear on either day and they were below par as we were - we may have won.

Seems you can't have an opinion here that you think Armagh football is on the wane when all the proof is there - without some lads getting the hump. Time for change in Tyrone? Icon_rolleyes

**mossbags** Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:26 pm

[quote="Jayo Cluxton"][quote="samin10"]

Jayo Cluxton wrote:no real shame. Over the last 5 years we have put in some very good performances though. Yes some people will say only in Leinster but without being picky in 2008 we did beat Wexford by 23 points who went on to beat Armagh by 5 points. I still think Tyrone and Kerry hit top gear against us and if we had hit top gear on either day and they were below par as we were - we may have won.

Delusional

Guest Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:30 pm

Jayo Cluxton wrote:
samin10 wrote:
Jayo Cluxton wrote:No - have made it over the last 3/4 seasons tbh. I don't read anything into 'league' football.

out of curiousity how did you come of the opinion that "on our day we are capable of beating anyone" when you were talking about the dubs a couple of weeks ago?

Are you getting carried away with the dubs run in the league or were you basing that opinion on something the dubs have done in championship football over the past three or four years? (like getting stuffed anytime they meet a non leinster county)

FFS some very touchy people on here. I am well aware we have been stuffed in the last two QFs - by two awesome performances by the two best teams in the country in the Noughties - no real shame. Over the last 5 years we have put in some very good performances though. Yes some people will say only in Leinster but without being picky in 2008 we did beat Wexford by 23 points who went on to beat Armagh by 5 points. I still think Tyrone and Kerry hit top gear against us and if we had hit top gear on either day and they were below par as we were - we may have won.

Seems you can't have an opinion here that you think Armagh football is on the wane when all the proof is there - without some lads getting the hump.

had a long message in response for some reason it wiped. Anyway basically it said i agree with you that we are not the team that we were in 06 but if anything we are now improving (not on the wane). I was not having the hump i was just trying to understand the login in your thinking that the dubs are a match for anyone on their day. If you think there is no shame on being on the recieving ends of hammerings like 08 and 09 then thats up to you (but personally i would be ashamed and would not be claiming to be a match for these teams) when as you put it "the proof is there" that they're not. As far as wexford in 2008 goes to use your thinking (in terms of what could have been between the dubs andkerry or tyrone) if we had of hit top gear against wexford the way the dubs did and wexford had of **** themselves they way they did against dublin then we too would have hammered them. (we should have hammered them anyway, if your granny had balls and all that). It is obvious by the fact that the dubs have not reached an all-ireland final in 15 years that "on their days" do not come round to often for the dubs against non leinster opposition

**Armaghgeddon** Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:41 pm

Im not being touchy how can Armagh still be on the wane when they have a totally different team? Two players from 02 are playing in 2010! Armagh have a really young squad that just need to have a mentality adjustment and a bit more experience.

**Jayo Cluxton** Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:47 pm

Thats me in my box then ........ Time for change in Tyrone? Icon_rolleyes

**mullins** Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:26 pm

Armaghgeddon wrote:Im not being touchy how can Armagh still be on the wane when they have a totally different team? Two players from 02 are playing in 2010! Armagh have a really young squad that just need to have a mentality adjustment and a bit more experience.

I think you armagh boys are being touchy-As for Dublin in the last 2 years we have collapsed- but over the last 5 years we've being involved in some top games in the championship....Believe it or Not Time for change in Tyrone? Suspect

**Armaghgeddon** Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:37 pm

mullins wrote:
Armaghgeddon wrote:Im not being touchy how can Armagh still be on the wane when they have a totally different team? Two players from 02 are playing in 2010! Armagh have a really young squad that just need to have a mentality adjustment and a bit more experience.

I think you armagh boys are being touchy-As for Dublin in the last 2 years we have collapsed- but over the last 5 years we've being involved in some top games in the championship....Believe it or Not

Top games? Please do tell....

Was it the game they lost...

Dublin 1-8
Tyrone 3-14

or was it the game against Kerry

Dublin 1-7
Kerry 1-24

Seriously, I have no problem with Dublin but to say they have been in some of the top championship games [of recent years] you are mistaken.

The best one that I have seen them in was the 2002 match against Armagh - not being biased here but that was a great game although not as good as Armagh v Tyrone '05.

**mullins** Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:46 pm

Armaghgeddon wrote:
mullins wrote:
Armaghgeddon wrote:Im not being touchy how can Armagh still be on the wane when they have a totally different team? Two players from 02 are playing in 2010! Armagh have a really young squad that just need to have a mentality adjustment and a bit more experience.

I think you armagh boys are being touchy-As for Dublin in the last 2 years we have collapsed- but over the last 5 years we've being involved in some top games in the championship....Believe it or Not

Top games? Please do tell....

Was it the game they lost...

Dublin 1-8
Tyrone 3-14

or was it the game against Kerry

Dublin 1-7
Kerry 1-24

Seriously, I have no problem with Dublin but to say they have been in some of the top championship games [of recent years] you are mistaken.

The best one that I have seen them in was the 2002 match against Armagh - not being biased here but that was a great game although not as good as Armagh v Tyrone '05.

You need to watch more games...As for 02 was that when armagh scored a goal from a scrum and carried it over the line.

Guest Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:48 pm

mullins wrote:
Armaghgeddon wrote:Im not being touchy how can Armagh still be on the wane when they have a totally different team? Two players from 02 are playing in 2010! Armagh have a really young squad that just need to have a mentality adjustment and a bit more experience.

I think you armagh boys are being touchy-As for Dublin in the last 2 years we have collapsed- but over the last 5 years we've being involved in some top games in the championship....Believe it or Not

such as? (against non leinster teams)

the collapse against tyrone in 2005?

collapse against mayo in 2006 who ent on to get destroyed in final?

narrowly beating an average derry team in 2007?

i fail to see how anyone could claim that the dubs are capable of beating anyone on their day. They would need everything to go right for them and alot to go wrong for the likes of Tyrone or Cork (think kerry are a bit behind these two this year).

On the basis of Tyrone or Cork having a terrible day and the dubs having a great day then yes they would be capable of beating them (but the same could be said for at least 10 other counties), the reality is if Tyrone or Cork are on fire then it will not matter how good of a day these other counties are having because it wont be enough.

**Armaghgeddon** Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:53 pm

mullins wrote:
Armaghgeddon wrote:
mullins wrote:
Armaghgeddon wrote:Im not being touchy how can Armagh still be on the wane when they have a totally different team? Two players from 02 are playing in 2010! Armagh have a really young squad that just need to have a mentality adjustment and a bit more experience.

I think you armagh boys are being touchy-As for Dublin in the last 2 years we have collapsed- but over the last 5 years we've being involved in some top games in the championship....Believe it or Not

Top games? Please do tell....

Was it the game they lost...

Dublin 1-8
Tyrone 3-14

or was it the game against Kerry

Dublin 1-7
Kerry 1-24

Seriously, I have no problem with Dublin but to say they have been in some of the top championship games [of recent years] you are mistaken.

The best one that I have seen them in was the 2002 match against Armagh - not being biased here but that was a great game although not as good as Armagh v Tyrone '05.
You need to watch more games...As for 02 was that when armagh scored a goal from a scrum and carried it over the line.

Thats laughable, I need to watch more games? Everytime Dublin get into a semi or quarter they seem to get hammered. Id rather have a short summer than have it end in embarassment.

**mullins** Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:59 pm

samin10 wrote:
mullins wrote:
Armaghgeddon wrote:Im not being touchy how can Armagh still be on the wane when they have a totally different team? Two players from 02 are playing in 2010! Armagh have a really young squad that just need to have a mentality adjustment and a bit more experience.

I think you armagh boys are being touchy-As for Dublin in the last 2 years we have collapsed- but over the last 5 years we've being involved in some top games in the championship....Believe it or Not

such as? (against non leinster teams)

the collapse against tyrone in 2005?

collapse against mayo in 2006 who ent on to get destroyed in final?

05 v tyrone were 2 good games that could have gone anyway in the first game..In the second game tyrone got a penalty that never was and we never recovered from it....

Ì won't discredit mayo for beating us in 06 on the day thet would have beat most counties...

As for 07 you choose to pick the Derry game for measuring that year i prefer to choose 07 v Kerry Semi final the winner of that game were always going to collect Sam..Out of all the years since 02 i believe that was the closest we came..It was a classic semi final which we were unlucky to loose

08-09 i will never understand- but we will overcome it sooner

narrowly beating an average derry team in 2007?

i fail to see how anyone could claim that the dubs are capable of beating anyone on their day. They would need everything to go right for them and alot to go wrong for the likes of Tyrone or Cork (think kerry are a bit behind these two this year).

On the basis of Tyrone or Cork having a terrible day and the dubs having a great day then yes they would be capable of beating them (but the same could be said for at least 10 other counties), the reality is if Tyrone or Cork are on fire then it will not matter how good of a day these other counties are having because it wont be enough.

**mullins** Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:01 pm

Armaghgeddon wrote:
mullins wrote:
Armaghgeddon wrote:
mullins wrote:
Armaghgeddon wrote:Im not being touchy how can Armagh still be on the wane when they have a totally different team? Two players from 02 are playing in 2010! Armagh have a really young squad that just need to have a mentality adjustment and a bit more experience.

I think you armagh boys are being touchy-As for Dublin in the last 2 years we have collapsed- but over the last 5 years we've being involved in some top games in the championship....Believe it or Not

Top games? Please do tell....

Was it the game they lost...

Dublin 1-8
Tyrone 3-14

or was it the game against Kerry

Dublin 1-7
Kerry 1-24

Seriously, I have no problem with Dublin but to say they have been in some of the top championship games [of recent years] you are mistaken.

The best one that I have seen them in was the 2002 match against Armagh - not being biased here but that was a great game although not as good as Armagh v Tyrone '05.
You need to watch more games...As for 02 was that when armagh scored a goal from a scrum and carried it over the line.

Thats laughable, I need to watch more games? Everytime Dublin get into a semi or quarter they seem to get hammered. Id rather have a short summer than have it end in embarassment.

You know whats laughable reading your posts Time for change in Tyrone? Lol

**Jayo Cluxton** Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:07 pm

I can recall some very good games that Dublin have won and lost in recent years. Kildare last year was a good game and Kildare subsequently only lost by two points to Tyrone but lets forget about Leinster - its crap after all. In 2007 we beat a good enough Derry side (not from Leinster last time I checked) by 18 to 15 and lost to eventual winners Kerry by two points in the semi. In 2006 we lost by one point to Mayo in the semis in what was regarded as one of the best games of the decade. In 2005 we drew with Tyrone in a very good game before losing a replay - Tyrone went on to win Sam.

Dublin went in to both QFs over the last two years with many neutrals expecting them to win - it was not to be - spectacularly. But they had played enough good football up to that to be considered real contenders by a lot of good judges. Yes they blew it, bottled it or whatever on the day - but were not as bad a side as either scoreline suggests.

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