The myth of Tyrone's 'Conveyor belt of talent'

I was reading last night a little debate on her elast night about Tyrone's underage success, and thought it was worthy of a topic of its own. Ask GAA fans which county has the strongest underage set-up, and most would say Tyrone, yet I am very concerned about our ability to turn talented 17 year olds into top senior players.

All-Ireland minor champions 2 years ago and Ulster minor champions the year before that, Tyrone should have been serious contenders for an all-ireland U-21 title this year, however last night the limped out of the championship in the first round, courtesy of a 7 point defeat by Derry in Omagh. What makes this all the more worrying is that this was a squad featuring 7 current Tyrone senior panelists, players that the senior side desperately need to progress and push for places in the summer.

This wasn’t a one-off either. Since 2001 Tyrone have won 5 Ulster minor titles, and lifted the all-ireland on 3 occasions. However, since 2004 (the last year of the 2001 all-ireland minor team at U-21 grade) we have only reached 1 Ulster U-21 final, winning it in 2006. So, basically, that is 5 Ulster minor winning sides who managed to reach only 1 Ulster U-21 final between them. Tyrone have also been dominating Ulster Colleges in the last decade, Omagh & Dungannon winning 6 MacRory Cups between them since 2001 - that is giving us lots of good minors, but then where do they go?

In Tyrone we should know better than anyone that good U-21 sides produce good senior sides. All-Ireland wins in 91 & 92 led us to an All-Ireland senior final in 1995, while the U-21 wins of 2000 & 2001 led is to 3 senior titles in the same decade. But having said that, I wouldn't even mind so much if we were like Kerry who, despite not having won a minor title since 1994, still develop a steady flow of top senior players, but Tyrone aren't doing that.

Look at the current Tyrone side, and try and spot what top additions there have been to the squad in the last 5 years. I'd say only Justy McMahon has really made any serious impact, with Penrose and Tommy McGuigan (both from the 2001 minor side) coming in some distance behind him. By way of contrast, we have had a huge number of promising minors who have made the panel in the last 6-7 years but never progressed. Raymie Mulgrew, Colm Cavanagh, Peter Donnelly, Dermot Carlin, Shaun O'Neill, Cathal McCarron, Paul Quinn, Leo Meenan, Niall Gormley, Mickey Murphy have all had their chances, but none of them have been able to nail down a regular place on the senior team. The result for Tyrone is that we now have an aging team with nobody pressurizing them for places.

So what are the reasons? It is easy to point the finger at the U-21 management team, and certainly questions should be asked there, but I fear there is more to it. For years now, Tyrone have had under-age development squads, working with players from the age of 14 upwards. These lads develop nice skills and a good idea of how to play the game, and they then go on to form the minor and U-21 sides in later years. The trouble that I see though, is the the players who shine at the age of 15 or 16 are rarely the right type of player to dominate at the age of 25. I fear that Tyrone are losing the big awkward lads who maybe aren't so good at 14 or 15, but grow into powerful athletes by the time they are 23 or 24? These lads, having missed out on minor squads, find it hard to break into the U-21 set-up and then, as they aren't a big name, never seem to make it through to senior level either. Perhaps this partly explains why, Tyrone produce so many tidy wing-half backs but so few big midfielders or full-backs.

Anyway, just thought I'd open this one up to see what people think. I'm sure this isn't only a Tyrone problem, as Laois and Mayo, for instance, seem to have a similar problem in bringing through top minors to become top seniors.

excellent post TC - I actually had the same thread in mind a number of months ago and had most of it typed out and then scrapped it - funnily enough i was having the same conversation with a guy from our club after mass on Sunday, though we were talking about our club as opposed to the county setup.

I think players are pigeon holed from a very young age within clubs and its something i absolutely hate - some players earn their reputation from their fathers or uncles be it good or bad, just because a guys father was a county player people often automatically assume that the son will be the same or vice versa. This seems to follow them into county setups

The guys who make development squads are not always there on merit - again its because who they are related to in some cases not because of their ability. Liam Donnelly the u21 manager was giving of about the u21 competition earlier in the week it almost seems now like he was getting his excuses in early. He said there was too much asked of u21players in terms of Sigerson senior inter county etc. Personally i dont buy that - these young guys are flying fit and in Tyrone Mickey has the sense to leave u21 players out of senior games when required.

What is also surprising is that this year Tyrone had the sense to avail of the services of Ryan Porter in the u21 setup which i thought would have given them a big advantage.

I'll think more about this TC and maybe post some more as its a subject i dwell on quite a bit...........

two words.....

the beer

joan_balantine wrote:two words.....the beer

Sorry Joan, but I can't believe that 19 year olds in Tyrone are drinking any more than 19 year olds in Derry, Down, Kerry. Cork etc...

i think TC that the minor team 97/98 which became the u21 team 2000/01 has nearly held some fo these lads back

peter donnelly left the setup due to lack of football and moving away from the county he's not alone. a fair few lads made the county senior squad but the fella with the starting jersey was just too good to knock out of the place. now as the legs are starting to tire some places maybe up for grabs but several footballers have had their fill of subbing it.

also the thing about lads who could be good footballers not makin development squads can only hold them selves to accoutn for not pushing on. i was listening to a former county player talking to a group of young players a few weeks back and he said he missed the minor squad with cnavan cush etc but he mde sure h worked his balls off to make the senior squad with them lads. you can coach many a thing but not hunger or determination. ryan mcmenamin is a good example

from the 08 minors many have a good chance of making the step up . i would say by 2012 as many as 8-9 could be regular starters.

I think part of the problem can be summed up by the words "conveyor belt." Panels are picked at a young age, and then the same panel is moved along the grades without huge alterations to the original 30-40 lads that were selected at U14.

Both TC and Bocerty have already hit on similar points.

Once development squads are picked at U-14 or U-15 levels, it's very difficult for new players to break into the panel at U-16 and Minor grade, never mind at senior level. Equally well, the same players will continue to be part of the squads, even if their performances fall away. The first year I played U-21, one of the lads who started got his place solely on the basis of a "fine performance" against Mayo with the minors three years previous. The fact that he'd been terrible for both club and county in the three years since wasn't considered.

TC's point about players for different positions developing later is also true, and the onus has to be on managers to show a little initiative in getting the best players involved with their panels, regardless of pedigree or underage experience.
It used to be a case in Sligo that it was harder to get out of the County panel than to break out of Alcatraz. The same players picked year after year, whilst players who regularly outperformed these guys at club level were overlooked. Teams picked on reputations earned 5 or 6 years ago (or more in some cases), with current form not coming into the equation.
Kevin Walsh seems to be changing this attitude, but even now it still seems to be oresent amongst his selectors.

Thomas Clarke wrote:

joan_balantine wrote:two words.....the beer

Sorry Joan, but I can't believe that 19 year olds in Tyrone are drinking any more than 19 year olds in Derry, Down, Kerry. Cork etc...

Joan may notbe that far away with her post TC, while the young lads on the county panel may not be boozing it up the lads that could and should have developed into Under 21 county players could have left the game in search of booze, women and better times! It happens more often than not! High Stool Heros i call them, all talk and no action!

Your excellent post deserves a longer answer and when i have time i will write my opinion on it, but i must admit i was stunned when i saw the result this morning!

redhandman wrote:
i was listening to a former county player talking to a group of young players a few weeks back and he said he missed the minor squad with cnavan cush etc but he mde sure h worked his balls off to make the senior squad with them lads. you can coach many a thing but not hunger or determination. ryan mcmenamin is a good example

This I believe is the rub of the matter. I've spoken to a couple of legends from Galways 98-01 period and they were saying the same thing about a lot of the young lads who came from the succesful u-21 sides. Ultimately this is something thats either in a fella or its not.
Its very hard to decipher as obviously young lads can develop at different pace but finding the lads with the burning desire to win should be the key. You can always coach them how to catch and kick but the inner drive to make it can only come from within.

Wouldnt read too much into TC or Bocerty. The real reason why the young lads in Tyrone of the past 7 or 8 years have not made the breakthrough as yet is because the senior squad is so strong. Alot of the players coming through with Tyrone would already be stand out players in other counties. The 2000 and 2001 u21 tyrone players did not have the same problems making the breakthrough as to be blunt the tyrone seniors of the time were poor. I think however that Mickey should be trying to get 1 or 2 young players into the seniors every year otherwise they could be in trouble in a few years when the 2000/01 team all decide to hang up their boots round the same time. Armagh won u21 all ireland in 2004 and ulster minors in 2005. Ciaran McKeever, Andy Mallon and Aaron Kernan made the breakthrough immediately because many of the Armagh senior defence were getting on a bit but many of those other players are only really getting their chances now after McGrane, Francie, Oisin, McKeever, McNulty all retired. Basically what i am saying is some counties have to fast track young players into the seniors out of desperation. You should be gratefull that Tyrone do not have that problem.

Samin - i would certainly agree that the senior team of the last number of years has been a strong setup and very difficult to break into, but the young guys that TC is referring to are not even doing it at club level.

The big advantage the current senior team have are that the majority of them were brought up on a diet of Mickey Harte, he as had these guys since they were minors and has nurtured and developed them into the players they are today. There has been little or no disruption to their routine in terms of training and preparation and knowing what is expected of them.

The minor teams of the last few years and the u21s too have not had such a luxury - they have played under different managers at each grade who all have different ways of doing things. It would seem to me that whilst these guys are groomed ok in the skills of gaelic football the two thing they miss out on are developing a physical presence on the pitch and have little or no mental toughness.

We are victims of our own success in some respect in that lots of guys have won MacRory Cup Hogan Cup Ulster leagues and championships and even all irelands but they have won them all too easily. At 18 years of age these guys think they have made it as an intercounty footballer and lots of them have their heads slowly disappearing up their backsides such is the notion they have of themselves. Only a few weeks ago a young guy who was playing last night for the u21s and featured during the McKenna cup for the seniors walked into a bar i was in, he came through the door with the chest out and looked around as if to say i'm here look at me i play for Tyrone, what was ironic was there were three other Tyrone players in the same bar and you wouldn't have known they were there. Too many young guys are wrongly put on pedestals too soon and read too much about themselves in the press.

Take the 08 minor team two of the best players were Coney and Teague - Coney the one with the full toolbox of skills Teague the workhorse who isnt afraid to put himself about on a field, i kn ow which one i would have my money on making it as an intercounty star. Wind the clock back a few years a young Brian Dooher couldnt make a minor panel, it was probably the best thing ever happened him as he worked his socks off to become the player he is today.

Too many nice footballers and now enough guys with the passion for wearing the jersey is the main crux of the problem. Time to look at the structures in place between minor and senior and even the 'benefit' of development squads. Harte needs to be like a 'director of football' overseeing all development from minor on to ensure guys pick up good habits early on.

Another point worth making is we have any amount of good players but there is a distinct lack of good coaches - something that needs to be looked at.

This is a topic best discussed over a few pints TC!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Some great points lads, and perhaps there is no simple answer.

B&W probably explained the problem better than I did, by emphasising the 'conveyor belt'. He is totally right when he talks about U-21 panels being pre-determined by U-15 development squads, and I too have wondered about what it actually takes to for some players to get dropped from the Tyrone senior squad, particularly the lads who have made no improvement after 4-5 years. Boc is right too when he says that some of them lack the mental toughness to become important players in a well-established team.

I like Boc's idea of Mickey Harte in a 'Director of Football' type role. In fact, it is something I've chatted about with the auld fella in the past. There is a serious amount of work being done in Tyrone to develop young footballers, but hard work isn't enough on its own. You also need direction, and having someone of Harte's status and vision would be ideal in developing all areas from schools to development squads to club football.

I'd also like to see someone like Mickey tasked with developing football in the likes of Dungannon, one of the biggest towns in Tyrone, but with a GAA club on its knees. Tyrone GAA can't afford to say goodbye to Dungannon as, given the population, they should always have a couple of players on the county panel.

Club football is also something i'd look at, and the system of a second championship made up of amalgamated teams should definitely be considered. I look at Dungannon, a division 3 side, but with a couple of decent players. Unless they are on U-21 panels or at University, these lads will never improve, as they will only ever play poor footballers. And even if they do improve, they won't be noticed. I think that playing for your area team, maybe an amalgamation of 5-6 local clubs in a secondary championship would raise the standard of club football, and get lads used to playing competitive games with and against better footballers.

Anyway, as Boc says, that has sort of opened another can of worms, and requires far too much typing to properly debate.

Some great points here - fair play to all. I admit I think it was me that proposed this myth elsewhere. In my mind Tyrone are always there or thereabouts at underage (and of course senior level) - TCs post opens my eyes. There is no doubt a successful senior team lessens the chances of underage guys breaking through. And a great point made here is that Kerry haven't had huge underage success ... but look at their seniors. I have posted numerous times - here and possibly elsewhere - regarding Westmeath and Laois' success at underage but not translating to senior. Its a hugely interesting topic - there are numerous factors I reckon - burnout, alcohol, women!, education, lack of opportunity, disillusionment, bad management and many more. Intriguing no doubt and if someone comes up with the template to address the problems they will become a famous man - or woman!

Jayo Cluxton wrote:Some great points here - fair play to all. I admit I think it was me that proposed this myth elsewhere. In my mind Tyrone are always there or thereabouts at underage (and of course senior level) - TCs post opens my eyes. There is no doubt a successful senior team lessens the chances of underage guys breaking through. And a great point made here is that Kerry haven't had huge underage success ... but look at their seniors. I have posted numerous times - here and possibly elsewhere - regarding Westmeath and Laois' success at underage but not translating to senior. Its a hugely interesting topic - there are numerous factors I reckon - burnout, alcohol, women!, education, lack of opportunity, disillusionment, bad management and many more. Intriguing no doubt and if someone comes up with the template to address the problems they will become a famous man - or woman!

Jc development squads are what they say they are-trying to get players for the senior panel if you can pick up silverware along the way great if not it doesn't really Matter..

Thew template 10 years ago to address the problem was development squads before you only turned up for trials ..Im not sure if we have a problem in Dublin because i see a lot of young lads coming through to the senior panel. If their good enough to play senior only time will tell...

Mullins the problem I have with development squads is that they pick the 'best' players in that age group who have already a great chance of making it.

Instead lets use development squads to concentrate on the second tier of player, those who have raw talent and some skill and plenty of potential but just need someone to take them under their wing and point them in the right direction. Give them the encouragement to stick at it and get them into a routine of doing the right things like lifestyle exercise gym work weights ball work etc.

There are so many decent footballers who could have made a senior inter-county team who have slipped through the net and away from the sport altogether simply because no one was fighting their corner.

A big problem i see from club level is that loads of young guys who have an interest in football are missing out all because their is no interest in the sport from within the family and therefore there is no encouragement for them, that is were the club need to step and offer all the support mechanisms to these guys to keep them on board.

Thomas Clarke wrote:Some great points lads, and perhaps there is no simple answer.

B&W probably explained the problem better than I did, by emphasising the 'conveyor belt'. He is totally right when he talks about U-21 panels being pre-determined by U-15 development squads, and I too have wondered about what it actually takes to for some players to get dropped from the Tyrone senior squad, particularly the lads who have made no improvement after 4-5 years. Boc is right too when he says that some of them lack the mental toughness to become important players in a well-established team.

I like Boc's idea of Mickey Harte in a 'Director of Football' type role. In fact, it is something I've chatted about with the auld fella in the past. There is a serious amount of work being done in Tyrone to develop young footballers, but hard work isn't enough on its own. You also need direction, and having someone of Harte's status and vision would be ideal in developing all areas from schools to development squads to club football.

I'd also like to see someone like Mickey tasked with developing football in the likes of Dungannon, one of the biggest towns in Tyrone, but with a GAA club on its knees. Tyrone GAA can't afford to say goodbye to Dungannon as, given the population, they should always have a couple of players on the county panel.

Club football is also something i'd look at, and the system of a second championship made up of amalgamated teams should definitely be considered. I look at Dungannon, a division 3 side, but with a couple of decent players. Unless they are on U-21 panels or at University, these lads will never improve, as they will only ever play poor footballers. And even if they do improve, they won't be noticed. I think that playing for your area team, maybe an amalgamation of 5-6 local clubs in a secondary championship would raise the standard of club football, and get lads used to playing competitive games with and against better footballers.

Anyway, as Boc says, that has sort of opened another can of worms, and requires far too much typing to properly debate.

TC not to pick holes as you make a very sound and reasonable arguement but i think and i have discussed this at length with other gaa heads the reason some men are kept on the panel without making any improvement is due to the fact that there are maybe 50 fellas AS GOOD AS HIM but and this is the big but why would mickey harte or any other manager get rid of someone who knows what is expected has garnered some experience of intercounty senior football to repalce them with someone who is no better nor worse . my self adn a few men round the auld home club have discussed this as like every other club we have men who say X is as good as say carlin or mccarron or mickey murphy. but because these men have been there and know what to do why would mickey bring them up if they are no better

I like other Tyrone supporters left the game on Wednesday evening very dissapointed at what had unfolded in the closing minutes of an evenly contested game.

At the game itself some people commented that Derry should have been further ahead at half time, others felt we were losing the midfield battle and that our full back needed to be taken off. Changes were made in the second half and Tyrone possibly should have had the game won. A seven point victory for Derry doesn't tell the whole story. I believe that Tyrone failed to capitalise on the goal they scored and some lads tried to win the game on their own perhaps buying into their own media hype. The strong running team play was substituted for solo runs and numerous high balls being put into the full forward line unable to win possession and the Derry defence managed to clean up easily and build attacks.

The incident with the Tyrone official and the water bottle changed the game in my opinion and if anything lifted the Derry players. It was a Juvenile act and the play-acting of our corner forward was also embarassing. Derry followed this up by scoring their goal on 28+ minutes played putting them 3 points up with 5 minutes of injury time to be played. Tyrone basically pushed the panic button at a time when cool heads were required and lost possession on their on 45m line almost immedietly and went 4 points down. Game over with 5 minutes of injury time to play. Derry's next scores all came on the break and I felt 7 points didn't represent how close the contest was up until the 28th minute. Derry were deserving winners it must be said. I was impressed with Caolan O'Boyle, James Kielt and Lee Moore on the Derry team.

Thomas Clarke, Bocerty etc have made some very, very good points and I suppose after a defeat the post mortems will follow and questions are asked more so of a team that loses as opposed to a team that is winning. Everyone will have varying ideas on what to do to improve things but I am of the opinion that there are an abundance of attacking half backs being produced and not enough of the Conor Gormley type figures emerging at underage level with the power to stop an opponent with their strength.

One point to note is that only 4 of the starting 15 are over age next year but whether or not the present management will be in place next year is up for debate. But it has to be said that since the 2006 Ulster championship success Tyrone under 21's have left the scene in a very timid fashion each year. The step up from minor to senior is casuing some tribulation and its an area that is going to require some development in Tyrone. I quite fancy Tyrone minors for the All Ireland title this year.....

and not enough of the Conor Gormley type figures emerging at underage level with the power to stop an opponent with their strength.


Strength, Is that what you call it? I would say Ronan Clarke last year would have called it being wrestled, jersey pulled and dragged to the ground anytime the ball came his direction. Should have walked half an hour before he eventually did.

Only winding Mugsy, a fine footballer and i get your point.

samin10 wrote:and not enough of the Conor Gormley type figures emerging at underage level with the power to stop an opponent with their strength.


Strength, Is that what you call it? I would say Ronan Clarke last year would have called it being wrestled, jersey pulled and dragged to the ground anytime the ball came his direction. Should have walked half an hour before he eventually did.

Only winding Mugsy, a fine footballer and i get your point.

Ha Ha no problem Samin, In fact Mickey should have moved him a half an hour before he eventually went....
The Armagh defence's of '02 and so fourth weren't lacking in Strength and had the capabilty of slowing players momentum especially teams that that strong running forwards. Ok at times it might not have been the prettiest but it was effective. Far too many of the footballers we are producing now are wing-backs who's first priority is to attack when it should be to defend and its probably the main reason that Tyrone seniors are conceding so much in recent games and having to try and outscore opponents without the likes of Cavanagh and O'Neill and are coming up short.
Dublin seem to have rectified this problem in the opening NFL games - maybe its time we started to copy the Dubs

. I have watched a lot of Tyrone schools at McRory and the minors, and
felt that they were based on a particular "pattern", that being the all
moving, inter changeable, hard working senior side. They also had the
cynicism as well.

Who can forget the planned "assault" on Darren
O'Sullivan when 4 or 5 different players were yellow carded for
literally jumping on his back?

And a few of the minor wins came
against Mayo who true to their pedigree insisted in putting their faith
in pure football and lost out to Tyrone's more "normal/cynical"
approach.

Coney certainly looks the business, as do a few others
but i accept the point you make about the awkward "big" lad. Kilkenny
had one such lad and they stuck him in to use his "big a### to put
people off". His name was Shefflin, and he developed.

Certainly
the structures are good, but the wastage is high as well. Perhaps they
are like Galway at hurling, or on a local level Loughiel club in Antrim.

There
are that many coming through that they never seem to have a settled
side and some great prospects have been put on the scrap heap, aged 25.
That certainly applies to Galway.

And maybe Tyrone have not been
as quick to change as say Kilkenny. It is certainly tempting to hang on
to the like of Dooher, a marvellous non stop leader of the team, but
maybe he should have been replaced by now, and maybe a few others.

Obviously
there is not a lot wrong with Tyrone, but I agree that there should be
more to show, certainly at U21, in the last decade.

Could be completely off the mark here but could it be that the current crop of senior players are made up of or have played alongside the minor team of 1997/1998 that Mickey Harte has worked with all the way through and that the lads coming behind them now have not been brought up in the same system and as a result do not fit into this system?
Or is it a case of the 1997/1998 minor team were a unique (a favourite work of Mr Harte) bunch of players that did it all on every stage and the pressure on the newer breed is overwhelming?
I never would have considered Tyrone to have a conveyor belt of talent, just an exceptional group of players who came through the ranks with him and now those players are getting older/retiring etc;