Lisbon Treaty II

I am voting Yes, what about everyone else?

Do the people from the six counties take part in these referendums (my knowlegde of the Irish democracy is not what it should be)?

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:I am voting Yes, what about everyone else?

Do the people from the six counties take part in these referendums (my knowlegde of the Irish democracy is not what it should be)?

only if we have an address in the South of Ireland Loyal which we use to fraudulently claim the excellent dole payments on offer down there

So ye don't vote? Seems a bit unfair.

Are ya serious Loyal?

I feel like im banging my head against a brick wall LOL

At least you know now and you think its unfair, id vote NO, basis that weve said no before and they trying to sell this more jobs thing, lets be honest people the countries that need Jobs and money and are a hell of a lot well of than the south will see the jobs and the money first, hey and guess what we'll all be paying for it.

Then in the mean time we'll have recovered from the reccession ourselves, we'll be a united Ireland and i'll be a pensioner in the new irish republic.

Are ya serious Loyal?

I feel like im banging my head against a brick wall LOL

At least you know now and you think its unfair, id vote NO, basis that weve said no before and they trying to sell this more jobs thing, lets be honest people, the countries that need Jobs and money and are a hell of a lot worse well of than the south will see the jobs and the money first, hey and guess what we'll all be paying for it.

Then in the mean time we'll have recovered from the reccession ourselves, we'll be a united Ireland and i'll be a pensioner in the new irish republic.

I actually have no idea what this is..can anyone enlighten me?

Bright-Oak wrote:I actually have no idea what this is..can anyone enlighten me?

I don't know really either.

Bright oak you will get many interpretations however the bottom line is that we give european parliment more power to run the 26 counties and although i would vote no, ya couldnt get muuch worse than the current bunch who run the free state. :p

Bright-Oak wrote:I actually have no idea what this is..can anyone enlighten me?

BO i'm in the same boat as you - i havent a f**king clue what its all about havent bothered to try and find out either which probably is because i havent been asked to vote on it (i dont think so anyway - maybe us 'Brits' have already voted yes and i missed it somehow)

No doubt if i took the bother to read up on it, it would boil down to one thing MONEY!!!!!!!!!!

They'll keep asking until you say Yes anyway!

bocerty wrote:

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:I am voting Yes, what about everyone else?

Do the people from the six counties take part in these referendums (my knowlegde of the Irish democracy is not what it should be)?

only if we have an address in the South of Ireland Loyal which we use to fraudulently claim the excellent dole payments on offer down there

I was talking to a lad out in Dublin the other week and he said you get 220 euro per week on the dole, I almost fell off my chair when I heard that, try £120 every other week! I'm fortunate enough to be working in these times but if something goes wrong and I'm not I've now got another reason to head over other than the GAA

We enjoy democracy up here. When we vte "no" it stays as no.

They simply don't have another vote.

Everyone should vote "Yes" as it means they will note need to have a third vote.

The biggest change with Lisbon will be the voting system that will be used. Instead of having 2% of the vote they will have 0.8%. Also when the governments are voting on some issues 65% of the population of the EU must agree so this will mainly favour France, Uk and Germany who have the biggest say.

clash-of-da-ash wrote:The biggest change with Lisbon will be the voting system that will be used. Instead of having 2% of the vote they will have 0.8%. Also when the governments are voting on some issues 65% of the population of the EU must agree so this will mainly favour France, Uk and Germany who have the biggest say.

Clash,

The new voting system will have TWO criteria to be met for a decision to be passed.
1. Governments representing at least 65% of the EU population must agree.
2. At least 15 Governments, irrespective of size, must agree (i.e. One Country, One Vote)

0.8% is a meaningless figure to bandy about, as it only refers to half of the system.

So the big countries cannot just railroad decisions through as you are implying, they must gain the support of at leat 14 other countries. Equally well, a coalition of smaller countries cannot impose decisions on the majority of the population without first gaining the approval of the majority.

I hope you were just repeating what you heard from some No campaigners, and it's not intentional distortion of the truth.

black&white wrote:

clash-of-da-ash wrote:The biggest change with Lisbon will be the voting system that will be used. Instead of having 2% of the vote they will have 0.8%. Also when the governments are voting on some issues 65% of the population of the EU must agree so this will mainly favour France, Uk and Germany who have the biggest say.

Clash,

The new voting system will have TWO criteria to be met for a decision to be passed.
1. Governments representing at least 65% of the EU population must agree.
2. At least 15 Governments, irrespective of size, must agree (i.e. One Country, One Vote)

0.8% is a meaningless figure to bandy about, as it only refers to half of the system.

So the big countries cannot just railroad decisions through as you are implying, they must gain the support of at leat 14 other countries. Equally well, a coalition of smaller countries cannot impose decisions on the majority of the population without first gaining the approval of the majority.

I hope you were just repeating what you heard from some No campaigners, and it's not intentional distortion of the truth.

By changing the majority to 65% they are taking the power away from countries like Ireland, Denmark and Austria and giving Germany, France and Uk even more power.

clash-of-da-ash wrote:

black&white wrote:

clash-of-da-ash wrote:The biggest change with Lisbon will be the voting system that will be used. Instead of having 2% of the vote they will have 0.8%. Also when the governments are voting on some issues 65% of the population of the EU must agree so this will mainly favour France, Uk and Germany who have the biggest say.

Clash,

The new voting system will have TWO criteria to be met for a decision to be passed.
1. Governments representing at least 65% of the EU population must agree.
2. At least 15 Governments, irrespective of size, must agree (i.e. One Country, One Vote)

0.8% is a meaningless figure to bandy about, as it only refers to half of the system.

So the big countries cannot just railroad decisions through as you are implying, they must gain the support of at leat 14 other countries. Equally well, a coalition of smaller countries cannot impose decisions on the majority of the population without first gaining the approval of the majority.

I hope you were just repeating what you heard from some No campaigners, and it's not intentional distortion of the truth.

By changing the majority to 65% they are taking the power away from countries like Ireland, Denmark and Austria and giving Germany, France and Uk even more power.

But that's only one of two criteria that have to be met for decisions to be made. The requirement for 15 countries (regardless of population) acts a counterbalance to this, preventing a small cabal of large countries from forcing decisions onto the smaller countries.
It does have the effect of allowing larger countries to group together to veto decisions, but they already had that power under the old system.
The two criteria are interlinked, and both must be met for approval of any decision. Focusing on just one is highly misleading and basically amounts to lying by omission.

To be honest. I'm not convinced that any change in voting structure will make much difference anyway.
Any importance decisions in Europe are reached through concensus and negotiation. Our small size has always meant that we have been reliant on convincing others to agree with us. Removing the 1 Country, 1 Vote criteria wouldn't do much to change this reality, nor would increasing the weighting of our vote to 5% in the population weighted vote.

The reality is passing or rejecting Lisbon will make bugger all difference to our interaction with Europe.

It will not suddenly end the recession.
We will not be frozen out of Europe.
Our Corporation Tax policy will remain our own.
Our policy of "Neutrality" (when it suits us) will not be impacted.
Abortion will not be rammed down our throats.
Workers rights will possibly improve marginally, but most of the provisions introduced by Lisbon in this regard are either already in Irish legislation or else are common practice here.

The only meaningful difference that Lisbon will have is in how Ireland is perceived from outside.
Will we continue to be seen as a gateway to Europe, a (relatively) stable environment to do business, and an atractiev place for investment?
Or do we want to further damage our already creaking reputation? Rejection will mean that our commitment to Europe will be questioned by potential investors. Whilst the recent statements from Microsoft, INtel, Pfizer and others may have been prompted by the urgings of the IDA or the Government, these same companies have been privately saying that a "Yes" is critical for retaining an inflow of foreign investment.
Don't forget that local management at these companies have to compete with other countries for every penny that flows into Ireland. Anything that makes us look more attractive to these companies can only be a good thing.
I've gone into these reasons in more depth elsewhere in the past, but don't have the time to do so again here.

I'll be voting yes, because from my discussions with people in these companies I believe it will improve both my employment and earning prospects in the future. Selfish? Of course, but who here isn't!

I'd hate that if the Yes vote is passed that Cowen and that shower claim the credit for getting the yes vote just like libertas did last time.

Clash - this is bigger than Cowen, Kenny, Gilmore etc. This is a vital vote for our future. I am of no doubt that a NO again will be felt in this country long after the present politerati are gone. This is not the time for a protest vote - the issue should have been de-politicised a long time ago. There is only one sensible way to go here .........

I think Cowen and co. should have backed a no vote.