Fermanagh v Down Ulster SFC

Looking forward to this game for no reason but to see what progress Canavan has made with this Fermanagh team.

Having spoken to one or two in the panel i gather the winter training they done was nothing short of brutal, so fitness should not be an issue. They have lost Ryan McCluskey who is not only their captain but one of their main men. They had a reasonably successful league campaign and in fact finished highest scorers of all 4 divisions if my memory serves me right. However the feeling among the fans is they were extremely lucky not to have lost several league games, but everyone needs a bit of luck.

Down will be big favourites but there is a lot of pressure on this team and not least of all their manager, he has chopped and changed his backroom team about and the addition of Aidan O'Rourke certainly appeared a shrewd move on his behalf. That said i am not convinced he has what it takes at this level, and is living on borrowed time. If things dont go well i would fully expect him to step down. Benny will sit this one out, though i dont think its as big a blow to Down as it would have been a few years ago.

It will be interesting to see how the two wee men fair out against each other. I'm going for a Down win by 2 points.

Fermanagh had a good league campaign, although Canavan will have been very concerned by the pasting they got from Wicklow in Croke Park. I'd guess a large part of that was down to their inexperienced in Croker, whereas Wicklow have been there a lot in recent years.

Fermanagh in Brewster Park is a different proposition, and they will fancy their chances in this one. Ryan McCloskey is indeed a huge loss (I'd rate him as someone who would make any side in Ireland), but Down are also without several key players, so perhaps that balances things out.

Boc, I think you are being very harsh on McCartan. I think he has overachieved with Down so far. he has led them to an all Ireland final appearance, promotion from division 2, followed by back-to-back years of retained presence in the top flight. Down finished 3rd in the first division this spring which, in my opinion, is punching above their weight.

Fermanagh will need a big game from most of their players to win, and will need Seamie Quigley on fire at full forward. A bit like with Cavan against Donegal, there are many reasons for Fermanagh fans to be optimistic, but ultimately it is division 1 against division 4. Fermanagh are much more likely to spring an upset than Cavan were, but I still think that Down will win by a few points.

What's the weather forecast?

TC my own opinion is that Down achieved all that in spite of McCartan and not because of him.

Charlie Mulgrew took Fermanagh to an All Ireland semi final and almost a final doesn't make him a great manager. In fact his own club in Donegal dont even want him. Some guys get lucky and live off it for years.

bocerty wrote:TC my own opinion is that Down achieved all that in spite of McCartan and not because of him.

I wouldn't agree with that Boc. Personally, I'd look at where they were when he took over (remember the Ross Carr debacles?), and I think that substantial progres has been made. I know you can say that they had good underage players coming through, but he still took them to division one in his first year, and has kept them there for the last 2.

With a very average bunch of players, they came very close to winning an all-ireland, and I think that McCartan deserves a lot of credit for that.

This game has boring written all over it! Fermanagh will adopt defensive tactics in order to stop a now average Down! I have no interest in this game at all as these 2 sides will bring nothing to the late summer in my opinion (I know Derry won't but i'm from there, so that's different!!!)

I agree with Boc when he says that Down had a great 2010 in spite of McCartan, this year will prove that when they lose an Ulster Semi-final and perform badly in the qualifiers!

Down win, but the paint drying will be more exciting! Harsh, but fair!

In saying that McCartan is holding Down back, you are implying that they would probably do better with another manager. Better in 2010 would have been all-ireland champions, and in 2011/12 it would probably have been a division 1 league title. Are the Down players really that good? Personally, I don't think so.

I do agree with BE's expectations of a dour game. Fermanagh will indeed play very defensively, while Down too were extremely negative in their last match (admittedly that was against Cork, and they feared another mauling).

Thomas Clarke wrote:In saying that McCartan is holding Down back, you are implying that they would probably do better with another manager. Better in 2010 would have been all-ireland champions, and in 2011/12 it would probably have been a division 1 league title. Are the Down players really that good? Personally, I don't think so.

I do agree with BE's expectations of a dour game. Fermanagh will indeed play very defensively, while Down too were extremely negative in their last match (admittedly that was against Cork, and they feared another mauling).

never said or implied he was holding them back TC, careful how you read things.

In fairness Boc, you said that Down 'achieved all that in spite of McCartan', and also said that you're 'not convinced he has what it takes at this level'.

That sounds very much to me like you think he is holding them back. In my opinion, you are certainly implying it.

Deja vu

Thomas Clarke wrote:In fairness Boc, you said that Down 'achieved all that in spite of McCartan', and also said that you're 'not convinced he has what it takes at this level'.

That sounds very much to me like you think he is holding them back. In my opinion, you are certainly implying it.

You seem to implying TC that only for McCartan Down wouldn't have reached the final in 2010, or wouldn't have retained Div 1 status over the last 3 years. The argument I was making was that take James out of the equation and have McIvor and Tally in charge and I feel the result could have been the same, he is getting too much credit in my book for what they achieved and his back room men and huge slices of luck at the right time were the real reason they made the final in 2010. Look what happened in the final, McCartan stood for virtually 70 minutes watching their midfield getting cleaned out and Dan Gordon getting roasted and done nothing about it. Yes you could argue that his resources were limited but good managers would have tried something.

Are you telling me that Down are a significantly better team than the one Carr had, I don't think they are, results would suggest they are but looking at the bigger picture I feel very little real progress has been made.

I really wasn't intending to praise McCartan that much Boc, but I was trying to put some balance onto it as I thought that you were saying he wasn't doing a good job.

I just think he deserves a lot of praise for improving Down's standing and results. I agree that McIvor and Tally were very important in 2010/11, but they are gone now, and the results are still holding up (so far!). When I look at the Down players, I don't see a bunch of lads who are among the top 4-5 in the country in terms of talent, yet that is where their results over the last 24 months have them placed. To me, that is a side who are over-achieving, and when that happens, I think you have to give the manager some credit.

Thomas Clarke wrote:I really wasn't intending to praise McCartan that much Boc, but I was trying to put some balance onto it as I thought that you were saying he wasn't doing a good job.

I just think he deserves a lot of praise for improving Down's standing and results. I agree that McIvor and Tally were very important in 2010/11, but they are gone now, and the results are still holding up (so far!). When I look at the Down players, I don't see a bunch of lads who are among the top 4-5 in the country in terms of talent, yet that is where their results over the last 24 months have them placed. To me, that is a side who are over-achieving, and when that happens, I think you have to give the manager some credit.

sometimes TC i think we give managers too much praise for what a team achieves, many seem to think that the manager is the reason the team are doing well when in some cases thats not the case. I am off the opinion that McCartan falls into that category, a good manager will always leave his mark on a team yet when i watch Down play i cant see what McCartans input has been. I think he has been very cute in surrounding himself with some top drawer backroom men and for me the reason is to make up his own short fallings. Its perhaps not entirely all his fault but he is still feeding of his time as a player.

bocerty wrote:... a good manager will always leave his mark on a team yet when i watch Down play i cant see what McCartans input has been. I think he has been very cute in surrounding himself with some top drawer backroom men and for me the reason is to make up his own short fallings. Its perhaps not entirely all his fault but he is still feeding of his time as a player.

I actually think that recognising your weaknesses, and picking your backroom team accordingly, is a quality to be admired in a manager.

But that aside, your point about not leaving his mark on the side is an interesting one, and does set McCartan apart among most other managers. Mickey Harte, Jack O'Connor, Pat Gilroy, Conor Counihan - all of those guys have sides with a clearly defined style of play. Same goes for your Boylans, Heffernans and the likes further back, while even Jim McGuinness, Banty (with Monaghan) and others have built sides with very clear identities.

A very interesting observation, Boc - taken onboard.

Thomas Clarke wrote:

bocerty wrote:... a good manager will always leave his mark on a team yet when i watch Down play i cant see what McCartans input has been. I think he has been very cute in surrounding himself with some top drawer backroom men and for me the reason is to make up his own short fallings. Its perhaps not entirely all his fault but he is still feeding of his time as a player.

I actually think that recognising your weaknesses, and picking your backroom team accordingly, is a quality to be admired in a manager.

But that aside, your point about not leaving his mark on the side is an interesting one, and does set McCartan apart among most other managers. Mickey Harte, Jack O'Connor, Pat Gilroy, Conor Counihan - all of those guys have sides with a clearly defined style of play. Same goes for your Boylans, Heffernans and the likes further back, while even Jim McGuinness, Banty (with Monaghan) and others have built sides with very clear identities.

A very interesting observation, Boc - taken onboard.

He was very shrewd with the men he picked to work with TC and he surrounded himself with some of the best minds in the game that were available at the time. McIvor in particular was a big coup for him. My own personal opinion was that the men be brought in were more knowledgeable than he was and were perhaps more deserving of the job than he was, but thats who the Down County Board picked as manager. Maybe i have been harsh on him but he doesnt cut the mustard as far as i am concerned.

I suppose his record would indicate that his time at the helm has been reasonably successful but there has never been any great consistency in their performances, they had some decent footballers but they were the sort of team where you never knew what was coming next with them. They were as likely to take a good hammering as they were to win a game.

Mark Poland top scorer......

McCartan has done well beyond what anyone expected. Wee James was a diminutive but fearsome player, able to brush past men who anyone would have expected to send him on his ****.....and even when they did so, they soon found that he had a knack for getting back up, ball still in hand, and putting one between the sticks.

Down...by everyone's reckoning on this site..should never have been in an All-Ireland final in 2010....should have went crashing out of Division One the following year....should certainly have been sent packing from Division One this year without Clarke. But they still defied the odds. They lost the AIF by a point and maintained Division One status quite comfortable in the end. That has a hell of a lot to do with Wee James. Over achievement or whatever you people want to call it....fair enough, go with that line. McCartan was an over achiever as a player....a runt in the shadow of his father, from a back end of nowhere club, whose St Colman's jersey was near down to his knees when he wowed MacRory and Hogan Cup audiences.

He's Mr. Savvy with the media, gives away little and constantly plays down any hype. But make no mistake, he has been telling those players that they are among the very best in the country (with almost all of them having played in minor and u21 All-Ireland finals). That has shone through. Down have been shaky...far from perfect. On certain days they have played wonderful football to devastating effect and on others they have flopped. But they're still there....still somehow in the mix....still 'fluking' and 'over achieving' among the better sides in the country. That's McCartan's mark Boc. And maybe there's still more to come.

Fermanagh are an unknown quantity, having looked so strong albeit against poor opposition. Were this game in Newry I would feel much more at ease. But Brewster will be tricky. Down need to hit the ground running this year. They are better than Fermanagh, and should be winning. How they deal with the injuries, and the favourite's tag, will be crucial.

Bluearmy knocks it out of the park here....

Well the ambush just didn't materialise for Fermanagh. Keenan let his team down badly by getting sent off, and Wee James will know that little can be taken from this game due to the player deficit. Fermanagh set themselves up defensively, rather understandably it seems as Down managed to get 11 names on the scoresheet in the end. The Ernemen held out well in the opening minutes as the Down half backs and even the full backs surged up the field. Whether they could have maintained this for the entire game with 15 men cannot be known and that will be a niggle for the Down players after what was a sound start to the Ulster campaign.

In the end, red card or no red card, Down simply had more quality on the pitch. The ease with which the corner backs were able to break forward suggests that even with 15 men Fermanagh were facing a steep uphill battle to contain the all-out attacking play adopted by Down.

Both Down corner backs, and McArdle from full back, managed to get a point apiece. Daniel McCartan's point, straight after a quick-free Fermanagh goal had threatened to derail Down, was a crucial show of leadership from the back.

A good start for Down in what was a tricky little tie in Enniskillen. Brilliant performance from 21 year old Donal O'Hare, making his Championship debut with 1-1. Fermanaghs goal was soft from a Down perspective, the only real blight in what was a commanding display by the Down rearguard. Good to get a winning start.