Solution to hurling crisis

NSG and Jim and Patrique often out forward ideas for re-vamping the hurling championship but there is really only one answer - given the Cats dominance now - and forever .... the drive for five will become the yen for ten etc.

It is time to regionalise hurling. If the pick of Munster were to amalgamate there may be a team to push the Cats among them. As it is Tipp, Cork, Clare and Waterford are regressing - Limerick are going backwards faster than the winners of the Boat Race. Only Kerry are improving. Let them play for the meaningless Munster Hurling title separately. You could also have a regional team from Galway/Antrim (maybe Derry and Armagh lads too). You could see 8 Saffrons and 5 Galway lads and a couple of others to make up a decent side. Then you could split up the best of Leinster (Carlow, Dublin and Offaly) as one team with a weaker team drawn from Wexford and Laois - Westmeath?). Allow Kilkenny put in two teams and you could have a decent and competitive championship.

Jayo. How about the CCCC sorting it out? They are experts at it!

Trouble is Jayo, Kilkenny 'A' and Kilkenny 'B' would probably contest the All-Ireland final every year, and then the minnows (Tipp, for example) would complain about not getting their big day out in September.

An interesting proposal there Mr Cluxton.
Don't think you'll have to many biters.
The question to ask really
Is hurling in crisis?
I ask this because we are seeing possibly the greatest team to play out National sport set another new level/record
The only three teams that can come remotely close are (in my opinion):
1. Cork of the 40's
2. Tipp of the 60's
3. Kerry footballers of 70'/80's

Yes KK are dominant and scarily for all the rest of us the conveyor doesn't seem to be slowing down or drying up.
Solution:
Quiet easy actually get the proper structure's in place in our own counties to produce good hurlers/footballers.
From a Wexford point of view we are regressing and will not be dinning at the top table for a good few years to come.
We are currently overhauling our club scene but alas ignoring our under-age which hinders development rather than enhances it. Our underage system looks after the big boys, town teams with big picks and allows others an very easy get out of jail card our bottom division is not 15 a side, in minor it is 13, U16 it is 12. These are the most populated divisions at present.
Reason why so clubs can win and most teams have panels of 18 in these divisions, but that is for another thread,

Thomas Clarke wrote:Trouble is Jayo, Kilkenny 'A' and Kilkenny 'B' would probably contest the All-Ireland final every year, and then the minnows (Tipp, for example) would complain about not getting their big day out in September.

A myth that should be cosigned to the rubbish bin, as I have stated on numerous occasions Antrim would defeat the KK "b" team and always have whenever they have met, Walsh Cup etc.
No county has two teams capable of reaching a senior AI this unfounded bull takes away from the solution and makes a laughing matter out of something that a lot of counties need to address

JimWexford wrote:.
this unfounded bull takes away from the solution and makes a laughing matter out of something that a lot of counties need to address

I can assure you Jim, my post was every bit as serious as Jayo's was. I'm assuming that he, like me, was just giving some well-intentioned advice from our respective footballing strongholds.

Of course I was exaggerating when I said that Kilkenny 'B' would make the final every year, especially if they had to play against an amalgamated Munster selection. They would probably just make it every 3 out of 5 years, at best.

Thomas Clarke wrote:

JimWexford wrote:.
this unfounded bull takes away from the solution and makes a laughing matter out of something that a lot of counties need to address

I can assure you Jim, my post was every bit as serious as Jayo's was. I'm assuming that he, like me, was just giving some well-intentioned advice from our respective footballing strongholds.

Of course I was exaggerating when I said that Kilkenny 'B' would make the final every year, especially if they had to play against an amalgamated Munster selection. They would probably just make it every 3 out of 5 years, at best.

TC you are a very knowledge person as far as I'm concerned but that statement is not very clever.
I acknowledge (and have done many years ago) how good this current kk crop is but to suggest that there second 15 is on a par with Waterford, Tipp, Galway, Cork, Wexford, Limerick, Clare, Antrim, Laois, Carlow, Dublin and Offaly is a joke.
But each to there own opinion I suppose.
KK second string would be under pressure to qualify for a Leinster final even if the two teams were kept in opposing sides of the draw.

In all seriousness Jim I actually agree with you. In fact, after hearing that Walsh & Shefflin may both be out, I actually said to the auld fella that Kilkenny would be very vulnerable agianst Tipp.

Strength in depth is a myth, in any sport. We heard for year about Tyrone & Kerry having strength in depth in the football, but all sides really rely on a handful of key players. If those 5-6 key men are on the field, then you can chop and change the rest, sometimes with little real effect. But take 2-3 of the leaders out, and any side will be vulnerable.

Thomas Clarke wrote:But take 2-3 of the leaders out, and any side will be vulnerable.

Good point - O'Sé and Galvin a classic recent example.

Thomas Clarke wrote:In all seriousness Jim I actually agree with you. In fact, after hearing that Walsh & Shefflin may both be out, I actually said to the auld fella that Kilkenny would be very vulnerable agianst Tipp.

Strength in depth is a myth, in any sport. We heard for year about Tyrone & Kerry having strength in depth in the football, but all sides really rely on a handful of key players. If those 5-6 key men are on the field, then you can chop and change the rest, sometimes with little real effect. But take 2-3 of the leaders out, and any side will be vulnerable.

As I stated here a few weeks ago Kilkenny have 20 hurlers who are as good as anything in the country, after that the standard drops off as they are either somewhat unproven like Mulhall, Murphy, Eoin Reid and Paddy Hogan or just sqad filler like Cummins, PJ Delaney, Michael Grace....Kilkenny hardly set the world alight without their 4 or 5 Ballyhale lads in the league

Kilkenny are an excellent side alright but it will start to level out in a few years, Tipp have some outstanding prospects in their side at the moment and a few more at under 21 level to come on board in the next year or two....They could well be A/I champions in a few weeks.....The likes of Dublin, Waterford and Clare have been as strong as they have ever been at underage levels in the last 3 or 4 years, it will take time for these lads to come on board, fill out and get to the required level but all three look as though they will have a fairly good crop of hurlers in the medium term.....Although in saying that Cork look fooked for the next 4 or 5 years

No. I National Rugby Final, 4000 attendance, No. 1 Soccer final,8000, Kilkenny hurlers TRAINING session=8000. Now that proves why Kilkenny should field 2 or maybe 3 teams.Should help the Leinster Championship having extra comptetitive teams.

I see a figure of 7,500 at their training session last night. That Boxty fella will never get a ticket .....

I heard it was closer to 10000

Jayo Cluxton wrote:I see a figure of 7,500 at their training session last night. That Boxty fella will never get a ticket .....

Boxty "obliging" a pal by not seeing him stuck with premium level tickets X 2.....

Solution to hurling crisis, well firstly JC i dont see it as a crisis it will next year if down win the christy ring cup, but i have said before about the idea of the rest of ulster, leinster and connaught plus kerry entering teams into the senior championship. This would be an extra three teams with the list consisting of:

KK
Dublin
Offaly
Wexford
Carlow
Westmeath
Laois

Waterford
Tipp
Cork
Clare
Limerick

Antrim

Galway

Ulster
Leinster
Connaught and Kerry

Now to me this seems simple, eliminate the NHL, run off the provincials muntser and leinster during april and may (weather better then anyway), en have four groups of four top two go to quarter final stage bottom two into a sheild or b cup, however i would not rule out a new county coming into the foray and make a group of five.

I would also play the LMC, NRC and CRC during february and march, so that these counties still have their identity and can measure their improvement.

In this format this would allow teams to play around 6 games during the time they would normally play the league either in their province or in the relative cup ie NRC, this would mean a max of 6 games during the summer for any team, this will allow young players from fermanagh or mayo to aspire to play liam mc carthy hurling against cork, kk, tipp etc and it only has a 6 game format (3 group stage, 3 knock out), it would allow the club scene to continue while giving weaker counties a selling point to young players to entice them into their club while competing with the well organised rugby and soccer scenes, not to mention hurlings biggest competitors in these counties - gaelic football!

Dont know if you need to worry about KK right now, it wont go on forever and IMO Tipp could well finish off the run this year which will lead to a few retirements and if they dont retire all the better, the fall of KK will lead to the hunger building in the likes of wexford offaly cork etc.

Jim ive tried to look at the club scene by reducing fixtures with this format but i think this format gives us something to sell to kids in the weaker counties in particular and brings us a competition we can market in all 32 counties and gives us more meaningful fixtures in fed, mar, apr and may!

Have a think fellas, i know ive went on a bit but i think its worth a look! Obviously the long term goal of such a project like this is to get more counties hurling at the top level the same way carlow and westmeath have come on leaps and bounds and eventually look at a new format lol

The round robin when used in the qualifiers between 2004 and 2007 was a pure joke, lead to a heap of dead rubbers and mis matches.....


What I think should happen is that 14 teams take part in the top tier championship, 6 in munster, 8 in Leinster(galway, antrim, down etc to rotate between provinces where needed)....Play the provincial championship between the middle of may and middle of June, no replays....

Allow players back to the clubs for the last two weeks in June to play club games(teams that are knocked out earlier can start earlier) then have a straight knockout from the middle of july between the 14 sides left, the two provincial winners getting a bye to the quarters and would be on different sides of the draw....Open draw, the 12 others teams play off in the preliminary round with the 6 winners making up the quarters with the provincial winner.....This way means that every game means something, clubs will be allowed to get a few rounds of the championship played off and the conviluted nature of the current qualifiers is gone.....Every team is guarenteed 2 knockout games.....


Would also cut the top 2 divisions to 14, 7 in each division with two up two down each year.....The two teams relegated from division two wouldn't compete in Liam McCarthy the next year, their place would be taken by the two promoted from division 3....

Some good ideas there puke, for both championship and league, however i wouldnt let league interfere with championship status!

The league format is pretty good at the minute but still a couple of pointless games in div 2 and a lot of problems for any future championship format, the gaa need to be proactive and approach this with a totally fresh outlook.

The Puke wrote:The round robin when used in the qualifiers between 2004 and 2007 was a pure joke, lead to a heap of dead rubbers and mis matches.....


What I think should happen is that 14 teams take part in the top tier championship, 6 in munster, 8 in Leinster(galway, antrim, down etc to rotate between provinces where needed)....Play the provincial championship between the middle of may and middle of June, no replays....

Allow players back to the clubs for the last two weeks in June to play club games(teams that are knocked out earlier can start earlier) then have a straight knockout from the middle of july between the 14 sides left, the two provincial winners getting a bye to the quarters and would be on different sides of the draw....Open draw, the 12 others teams play off in the preliminary round with the 6 winners making up the quarters with the provincial winner.....This way means that every game means something, clubs will be allowed to get a few rounds of the championship played off and the conviluted nature of the current qualifiers is gone.....Every team is guarenteed 2 knockout games.....


Would also cut the top 2 divisions to 14, 7 in each division with two up two down each year.....The two teams relegated from division two wouldn't compete in Liam McCarthy the next year, their place would be taken by the two promoted from division 3....

Good ideas floating around but a spanner from me here, most counties have bye laws stating that no club games during the month of June to cater for the leaving Cert, club team very dependent on 17/18 year olds county teams not so much.
given the current climate clubs will become more dependent on 16/17/18 year olds as a lot of the 20 plus year olds may be gone to far away places to find work

JimWexford wrote:

The Puke wrote:The round robin when used in the qualifiers between 2004 and 2007 was a pure joke, lead to a heap of dead rubbers and mis matches.....


What I think should happen is that 14 teams take part in the top tier championship, 6 in munster, 8 in Leinster(galway, antrim, down etc to rotate between provinces where needed)....Play the provincial championship between the middle of may and middle of June, no replays....

Allow players back to the clubs for the last two weeks in June to play club games(teams that are knocked out earlier can start earlier) then have a straight knockout from the middle of july between the 14 sides left, the two provincial winners getting a bye to the quarters and would be on different sides of the draw....Open draw, the 12 others teams play off in the preliminary round with the 6 winners making up the quarters with the provincial winner.....This way means that every game means something, clubs will be allowed to get a few rounds of the championship played off and the conviluted nature of the current qualifiers is gone.....Every team is guarenteed 2 knockout games.....


Would also cut the top 2 divisions to 14, 7 in each division with two up two down each year.....The two teams relegated from division two wouldn't compete in Liam McCarthy the next year, their place would be taken by the two promoted from division 3....

Good ideas floating around but a spanner from me here, most counties have bye laws stating that no club games during the month of June to cater for the leaving Cert, club team very dependent on 17/18 year olds county teams not so much.
given the current climate clubs will become more dependent on 16/17/18 year olds as a lot of the 20 plus year olds may be gone to far away places to find work

Yerrah you could move to last week in June/first week in July or first two weeks in july once it is out of the way but I seriously think something needs to be done as a lot of club players are really starting to get a bit disillustioned by the lack of proper hurling during the summer months and how county boards don't seem to care....Won't really effect the big clubs but it is the smaller clubs who need to keep lads interested that are struggling....Surely there should be a couple of rounds played off in early May and the end of June/Start of July....At least if they know they are guarenteed to be playing around this time holidays/work etc can be organised around it

Wexford as I stated before are implementing a new championship.
Looking at playing 3 games off before June, then there will be a break off 3/4 weeks and start running club again.
On another more valid point, look at the successful counties, Cork, KK, Kerry etc
1 They run there champ in conjunction with county, ie they don't wrap players up in cotton wool (T.Walsh point in case).
2. They nearly always manage to finish off there club scene before the rest of us
3. Wexford go on a charge club scene put on hold (and same will nearly all other counties)

A good solution,
Limit /remove the power of the county manager, play the local championship games better than training any day of the week, have everyone playing not just the 15 lads on the county team with the other 15 warming the bench most of the time. Training but getting no game time.

JimWexford wrote:Wexford as I stated before are implementing a new championship.
Looking at playing 3 games off before June, then there will be a break off 3/4 weeks and start running club again.
On another more valid point, look at the successful counties, Cork, KK, Kerry etc
1 They run there champ in conjunction with county, ie they don't wrap players up in cotton wool (T.Walsh point in case).
2. They nearly always manage to finish off there club scene before the rest of us
3. Wexford go on a charge club scene put on hold (and same will nearly all other counties)

A good solution,
Limit /remove the power of the county manager, play the local championship games better than training any day of the week, have everyone playing not just the 15 lads on the county team with the other 15 warming the bench most of the time. Training but getting no game time.

We had a big problem this year in that our 5 best players were on the county panel and were only allowed play one league game for us, along with lads in county minor panels and lads abroad for a period of time(myself included) we ended up winning only one league game all year shipping a few hammerings on the way and got relegated from the top division from the Clare Cup, we won said competition for the past two years....