The country's in a state of Chassis

It’s hard to believe that there’s not an active topic discussing the upcoming budget, the strike action by public servants and the general economic crisis that we find ourselves in!!



It’s too important for us not to debate this so I’ll have a go at kicking things off …



Fact #1:

As a country, our current level of income is massively below our current level of spending.



Fact #2:

This cannot stay this way and something has to change.



Fact #3:

The 2 things that can change are income and expenditure.



Fact #4:

Income can change by increasing tax revenue or by borrowing money.



Fact #5:

Government expenditure is typically divided into 3 parts – public sector wages, social welfare, provision of services.



Fact #6:

The country is currently borrowing almost half a billion euros per week. More borrowing is not an option.



Fact #7:

The variables that the government can play with are:

- Tax increases / new taxes

- Cut public sector wages

- Reduce social welfare payments

- Reduce the services provided by the state





It’s at this point that opinions start to diverge. The public sector (as represented by their unions) want to increase taxes. IBEC and other employers representatives want to reduce public sector pay and social welfare. No one really knows what the private sector workers want but it’s probably safe to assume that they want government expenditure to be reduced rather than face into new taxes.



If I was in charge I’d go after expenditure. Wage levels in the public sector have increased by too much and we’ve now reached the point where we have among the highest paid public servants in the world. There needs to be an adjustment. I would go with 2% for those on <40k, 3% for 40-60, 5% for 60-100 and make up the rest from those earning >100k.



Social welfare must also be cut. €210 per week for a single person (as I’m sure our friends in the 6 counties will tell us) is a crazy amount of money. Cuts to social welfare have to be managed carefully as there are a lot of deserving people who need every penny they get. But there are loads of people who don’t need every penny they get. We’ve all heard to stories of 40k going to a family with 2 kids. It’s crazy.



So …. Do I have your vote?

RMDrive wrote:
[size=12]we’ve now reached the point where we have among the highest paid public servants in the world.

This is a lazy and false argument. Comparing wages with other countries is ridiculous. How much is a house or a can of coke or a loaf of bread in these countries. Or a new car? Tell the clerical grades that start on 20K that they are the highest paid in the world.

Whatever corrections are made it is vital that all people are left in a position to at least service their debt. The cost of living may be not as high but the large elephant in the room is mortgages, they are and will not come down.

KerryKatriona wrote:

RMDrive wrote:
[size=12]we’ve now reached the point where we have among the highest paid public servants in the world.

This is a lazy and false argument. Comparing wages with other countries is ridiculous. How much is a house or a can of coke or a loaf of bread in these countries. Or a new car? Tell the clerical grades that start on 20K that they are the highest paid in the world.

Whatever corrections are made it is vital that all people are left in a position to at least service their debt. The cost of living may be not as high but the large elephant in the room is mortgages, they are and will not come down.

But who is responsible for the mortgage? The people themselves of course. If people got a mortgage that stretched them so much that they weren't able to cope with a change in fortune, then it's their own fault. We all know people who got their bosses to lie about their earnings on their application forms and who got the "deposit money" temporarily transferred to their account from friends so they could print out a statement.
I know that is harsh but until people start taking responsibility for their own actions we're going to be stuck in this cycle of blame and excuses which is getting us nowhere.

Union chief concedes that €1.3bn payroll cut is needed

By Anne-Marie Walsh Industry Correspondent

Wednesday November 25 2009

THE most senior public sector union negotiator last night admitted for the first time it is "necessary" to find ways to cut €1.3bn from the State payroll.

Peter McLoone ruled out any permanent or temporary pay cuts but it is understood that he will present the Government with cuts by another name.

Speaking as 250,000 workers effectively closed down the entire public service for 24 hours yesterday, he said it would be "necessary" to agree "temporary measures" to cut the payroll next year.

He admitted reforms would not be enough to give the savings that are needed before 2011.

Sources revealed that one of the alternatives he may examine at talks with the Government, which re-start today, will be compulsory unpaid leave.

A proposal that could see public servants take 12 days off per year, amounting to roughly two weeks' gross salary, could make up the bulk of the savings.

The amount of days taken may be based on a worker's total earnings, meaning that higher-paid workers would take most of the leave.

But senior sources last night said this measure was unlikely to apply to frontline workers or areas where there are staff shortages, like speech therapy.

It is understood that the Government's plans to extend the working week across the public sector, particularly from 8am to 8pm in the health sector, thereby scrapping overtime rates, would not be enough to get the savings on its own.

Talks

Despite agreeing to go back to talks, The Irish Congress of Trade Unions' Public Services Committee yesterday set a date next Thursday week for another national strike.

But Committee chairman Mr McLoone appeared set to strike a deal that would be rubberstamped by the unions. The union leader appeared determined to avoid the eventually that the Finance Minister would impose another cut to basic pay of 6.5pc, just months after the pension levy took a similar amount from wages.

"I believe it is possible to agree an alternative that will achieve the savings the Government requires," he said.

The possibility of another strike is throwing up difficulties for two public sector unions.

The Association of Higher Civil and Public Servants and the Irish Federation of University Teachers have only balloted for a one-day strike. They do not have a mandate for a second strike -- and do not have time to ballot and serve the required seven day's legal notice


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


How in under sweet Jesus is giving people unpaid holidays going to help? All this means is that services will be cut because the government doesn't have the balls to stand up to the unions. Pathetic!

RMDrive wrote:
But who is responsible for the mortgage? The people themselves of course. If people got a mortgage that stretched them so much that they weren't able to cope with a change in fortune, then it's their own fault.

I also know people who got mortgages on the basis of their earnings. Their earnings have since been cut by 7% and 2% with talk of further reductions possible leaving them unable to meet mortgage repayments. These are not people who lied.

KerryKatriona wrote:

RMDrive wrote:
But who is responsible for the mortgage? The people themselves of course. If people got a mortgage that stretched them so much that they weren't able to cope with a change in fortune, then it's their own fault.

I also know people who got mortgages on the basis of their earnings. Their earnings have since been cut by 7% and 2% with talk of further reductions possible leaving them unable to meet mortgage repayments. These are not people who lied.

A fair point KK and I sincerely hope that the govt uses it's leverage with the banks to come up with a solution for those type of people.

I can't see any leverage here at all unfortunately. The actions of the banks post-meltdown indicate that there is no change of mindset there at all.

its not that bad - all the public servants who were on strike yesterday spent the day in Newry or Enniskillen spneding money like it was going out of fashion.

And then they have the balls to say they are struggling with reduced wages/salaries........

Dont make me laugh

Another man who believes all he reads in the papers. Have public servants got stickers on the back of their cars saying what they work at? Schools were off yesterday which may have had an impact.

In any case if there is better value over the border and people are struggling to make ends meet what do you think will happen?

Is there another strike Thursday week!?

Another great night out to look forward to next Wednesday! I'm enjoying this recession!

KerryKatriona wrote:Another man who believes all he reads in the papers. Have public servants got stickers on the back of their cars saying what they work at? Schools were off yesterday which may have had an impact.

In any case if there is better value over the border and people are struggling to make ends meet what do you think will happen?

not at all Kerry and i take exception to that comment.

why do i need to know what they work at, they are the best paid public servants in Europe - they are whinging and complaining about no money and then they head off on a shopping spree on a day off!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just be lucky they still have a job - ungrateful sh1tes

Why do you and the Daily Mail assume that all cars going into Newry yesterday belonged to public servants? Schools were off and students maybe it was them? You will find that almost all workers in this country relative to their counterparts in Europe are the best paid, including the private sector. Its to do with the cost of living.

Why would someone who puts in a decent hard working 40 hours shift be grateful to have a job? Its not like they are doing it for nothing. But keep those stereotypes coming.

kk from my own personal view point everything is down to mortgages and house prices. the price of houses dictates lending which in turn dictates the rate of inflation which will increase the cost of your general goods.

i know well paid people who have 3-4 houses and if they cant get them rented out they are in major difficulties even though they are earning over 150k per year.

the people who lied about income so they could own more than one house really caused this whole mess as due the the demand hosue prices jumped.

i refused to pay over the odds for a house even though close friends and family told me that the prices would only get worse. my mother always told me to live within my means . i will only own one house at a time even though i am in a good job with good prospects and my wife is in a similar position i would rather have a few pounds to spend on a yearly hol or a few beers or a new clothes etc than putting it into an "asset" which sucks up all my spare cash and gives you headaches with bad tenants who annoy thier neighbours and you.

the govt has to get this money back someway and everyone has to tighten thier belts but i feel that people who decided that greed was more important than need should have to stump up more so say people with more than one house should have their income taxed at a higher rate or alteratviely rental income should be taxed at a higher rate . just to start with.

i feel for peole who are struggling as my own parents did for years but people cant just bury their heads and say well im not paying for it .

i also heard about hte workers coming to newry on 2 fm and had a right old chuckle to myself at that one.

KerryKatriona wrote:Why do you and the Daily Mail assume that all cars going into Newry yesterday belonged to public servants? Schools were off and students maybe it was them? You will find that almost all workers in this country relative to their counterparts in Europe are the best paid, including the private sector. Its to do with the cost of living.

Why would someone who puts in a decent hard working 40 hours shift be grateful to have a job? Its not like they are doing it for nothing. But keep those stereotypes coming.

well its funny how Newry and Enniskillen are not half as busy today or on Monday as they were yesterday, yeah maybe students were the problem sure they all have access to cars that would be it then, their mothers and fathers are struggling to pay the mortgage etc but the off spring are running about in their own cars, talk sense you eejit.

The whole idea of a strike is to protest against something you dont like that means join the picket line and protest not **** of on some jolly up North expecting others to do your dirty work for you, typical public servants they want pay increases or no pay cuts but they arent prepared to join a picket line to fight for it.

should public servants be added to the Gear Grinder of the Year 2009 thread..........

If you look at the news you will see plenty on pickets. Usually pickets have time schedules and rotas.

KerryKatriona wrote:If you look at the news you will see plenty on pickets. Usually pickets have time schedules and rotas.

and if you had listened to the radio yesterday there was any amount of public servants or their friends/family ringing/texting to say they were away to Newry/Enniskillen shopping............................

my bet is your a Public servant Kerry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The whole shopping thing is irrelevent IMO. The essence of a strike is the withdrawal of work. The pickets are only required to stop others from going to work. So the idea of having people on rotas is a good one. If people decided to go shopping with their day then fair play to them.

The question of going North to do that shopping is an entirely different debate. I say they are dead right. If you can save money then go for it.

bocerty wrote:

my bet is your a Public servant Kerry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Another bet you lost. A lot of my people are teachers and nurses. As far as I know they are not blue blooded, they do not have any special status that means only they could go for these jobs. As far as I know everyone can apply for these jobs. During the boom years everybody laughed at public servants. Now they are the root of all evil.

The vast majority of public servants are nurses, guards and teachers. If any cuts are suggested to health, education or security there is outcry.

KerryKatriona wrote:During the boom years everybody laughed at public servants.

It annoys me when I see rubbish like this. Who is gods name laughed at anyone joining the public sector?? There were loads of lads from my secondary school and from my class at uni that did just that and I can guarantee you that no one laughed at them.
Can you tell me the profession of those people who were "laughed" at??

KerryKatriona wrote:If any cuts are suggested to health, education or security there is outcry.

Why are wage cuts linked to a cut in services? Are you telling me that PS workers will not do their job if their pay is cut?

My family experienced plenty of jibes during the boom years.

Public servants have already suffered a 7% pay cut plus a 2% income levy. How much more do you think is fair then. How much more money would you take from a clerical officer on 25 thousand? I think it is well documented that services are under severe pressure already. In order to get the savings required more jobs will be shed. Are you suggesting that the savings be made purely by pay cuts? Should the hard pressed private sector contribute anything do you think?

KerryKatriona wrote:My family experienced plenty of jibes during the boom years.

They might just have been laughin at your family

Maybe. They're not now though.

KerryKatriona wrote:Public servants have already suffered a 7% pay cut plus a 2% income levy.

Are you referring to the pension levy? And the income lecy which everyone pays?

KerryKatriona wrote:How much more money would you take from a clerical officer on 25 thousand?

As above, I propose 2%

KerryKatriona wrote:I think it is well documented that services are under severe pressure already.

While I'm sure some are, how about the ones that aren't. How about planning depts? How about the dept of agriculture? How about people who worked with CGT?
Which depts exactly are under severe pressure?

KerryKatriona wrote:In order to get the savings required more jobs will be shed.

Why? The savings can be made through pay. PS workers cannot be made redundant and voluntary redundancies are just that ... voluntary.

KerryKatriona wrote:Are you suggesting that the savings be made purely by pay cuts?

Yes, and by improvements in efficiency that will avoid the need to replace leavers.

KerryKatriona wrote:Should the hard pressed private sector contribute anything do you think?

You mean should they contribute more than they have? Yes. And you can rest assured that they will. We're talking about 4 billion here. Have a look at what the deficit is. There's more pain coming for everyone.

KerryKatriona wrote:Maybe. They're not now though.

Seriously. Tell me the professions that were laughed at.

bocerty wrote:its not that bad - all the public servants who were on strike yesterday spent the day in Newry or Enniskillen spneding money like it was going out of fashion.

And then they have the balls to say they are struggling with reduced wages/salaries........

Dont make me laugh

You made me laugh with that comment!

You just said that these people are struggling with reduced salaries-and why do you think they are up the North doing shopping? Do you think they just want a day trip up there?

They have no other option but to buy their goods and services up in the North because prices are just too steep down South. Their reduced salaries are the very reason they are buying their goods there!