Limerick City

**Grenvile** Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:45 pm

There was a brilliant documentary on 3 of the troubled estates in Limerick City the other night. It's still on RTE player I'd recommend watching it. It focuses a lot on the decent people living in some of these estates and how their lives are being ruined by anti-social behaviour. Anyone who dares to question the drug gangs is intimidated and their lives are made into a living hell.

The problem looks to be huge and stems from both issues with large housing projects lack of facilities to a complete lack of respect or fear of prison. Fat John McCarthy in a short interview described prison as "a holiday camp, you'd be afraid of going there years ago but not now, sure you have a TV in your cell and all, what more would you want"

I'm sure every county has it's rough estates, I'd hope that they aren't as bad as the few that this documentary is focused on. But how best to sort the problem? Obviously large low cost housing projects are a bad idea and there should be more of a focus by local authorities on freeing up a small amount of affordable housing in the wealthier estates, and better facilities in poorer areas. More active social workers and truant officers.

The prison system also appears to be in need of massive reform. Prison time needs to be harder. Especially for those involved in violent crime. Make a mini society. Work programs mandatory for all prisoners, hard physical labour. Have education courses freely available and incentives for those who are making an effort to better themselves. You start off with your bare cell and earn your luxuries over a period of time.

What do the people at GT think?

**Jayo Cluxton** Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:02 pm

Just build 4 high walls with a large rail running around the inside and chain them to that. Onyl cost a few grand.

Ps They have something like a 28 day cycle for prison food. ie They can not get the same meal twice (even steak) in a period of four weeks - or apparently there's be riots! Shocked

**bald eagle** Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:44 pm

Haven't seen the doc but will take a look at RTEplayer and hopefully i'll get to see it through that.

I have a lot of affection for Limerick and it's City from my time working and living there, my feeling from experience is that the City itself has a bad reputation that it doesn't deserve. I've always had a great time anytime i went out there and found the locals to be more than friendly, i can honestly say that i never felt threatened at any time there.

Policing has to be tougher on these scumbags, they continue to flought the law and make peoples lives hell!

I seen a debate on tv recently where former prisoners said that they found prison a "holiday camp", time there does need to be tougher but the fact that it's not is a direct result of the PC culture. Don't get me wrong, a lot of the PC culture is for the best, but people behind bars don't deserve a namby pamby approach taken to them, the minute they committed their crime they waved their rights to be treated fairly. Sure there are those that are falsely imprisoned, but if/when they are actually proved innocent then they should be properly renumeriated for their troubles.

**mullins** Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:29 pm

Jon, if the Council/Corporation enforced legislation that they were giving, on these people, it would be the first step in the right direction..But lets be honest when did anyone give a fook about these areas,thats the real problem..Prison is not the answer to everything....If you want to change things you have to change the mindset first.....Intergration/not segergration is what i believe is the way forward for social housing....

**Grenvile** Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:59 pm

mullins wrote:Jon, if the Council/Corporation enforced legislation that they were giving, on these people, it would be the first step in the right direction..But lets be honest when did anyone give a fook about these areas,thats the real problem..Prison is not the answer to everything....If you want to change things you have to change the mindset first.....Intergration/not segergration is what i believe is the way forward for social housing....

I agree Mullins that's why I suggested having the councils acquire housing in the better areas and integrate the poorer families into them. Better living conditions and proper education and extra curricular activities are the long term solutions. But crime will always exist and promoting a better standard of living for people in areas like that is no good unless prison is an effective deterrent which it is not at the minute. People have to know that if they want to stray to that side of society the consequences will be severe.
I never said prison was the answer but it is a necessity, it should first and foremost serve as a deterrent which necessitates harsh treatment, then as a method of reform.

**Jayo Cluxton** Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:00 pm

Some of these people hav e more money than you or I will ever see and yet they are housed ....

**Grenvile** Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:05 pm

Jayo Cluxton wrote:Some of these people hav e more money than you or I will ever see and yet they are housed ....

The Criminal Assets Bureau should be casting a wider net..

**OMAR** Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:12 pm

I saw a bit of the programme
There was also a programme on a few weeks back - I think it was around the same time of the evening about New York

I think that in reality the estates in question through decades of neglect have gone beyond redemption.
Most of the decent people have jumped ship with any chance they could to get out and there are a few poor misfortunates still caught in the trap along with the "troublesome element".

Solution ?
Sadly the solution takes money
Firstly the whole area needs to be knocked to the ground and rebuilt with proper facilities(play areas, Sportshalls, Creches etc)- They have started on this but don;t know if they have the money to finish it

Once this is done the area needs to be handled like New York in the nineties - Heavy policing and zero tolerance
Graffiti, littering anything petty needs to be handled heavy. We clearly need the prison space in the shorter term
but once it becomes a nicer place to live the crime will be lower from the next generation.

I'd suggest that some small element or area of the existing estate is left as it stands. Every family should be given an opportunity to move to the Regenerated area however if a family is guilty of repeated anti social behaviour - they get moved back. Everyone gets a chance anyone that doesn't take it gets sent back to one area and let them hassle each other.

But

Needs money for new hosues
Needs money for new facilities
Needs money for more police
Needs money for longer prison sentences

**Jayo Cluxton** Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:24 pm

[quote="OMAR"]I Needs ~~money~~ judges for longer prison sentences /quote]

**mullins** Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:26 pm

Jayo Cluxton wrote:Some of these people hav e more money than you or I will ever see and yet they are housed ....

JC in this estate the people giving problems should be served with an evicition order,then they should be removed and put on the street,let them then try to fing there own housing..And then the council are free of them and can go and rebuild the estates for the people that want to live in peace....50 million has being spent on regeneration already why didn't the programme show us where that money has being spent....

**Grenvile** Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:34 pm

[quote="Jayo Cluxton"]

OMAR wrote:I Needs ~~money~~ judges for longer prison sentences /quote]

Judges are being undermined by parole boards I would assume. When harsh sentences are handed down they are not enforced. The good behaviour thing is nonsense. Rewarding people for acting how they are supposed to act? Rubbish.. Good behaviour and attempts to better yourself should only result in easier time, more luxuries in your cell etc. 10 years should be 10 years. It all comes down to lack of resources, or should I say misplacement of resources.

**mullins** Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:41 pm

[quote="Jonsmith"]

Jayo Cluxton wrote:
OMAR wrote:I Needs ~~money~~ judges for longer prison sentences /quote]

Judges are being undermined by parole boards I would assume. When harsh sentences are handed down they are not enforced. The good behaviour thing is nonsense. Rewarding people for acting how they are supposed to act? Rubbish.. Good behaviour and attempts to better yourself should only result in easier time, more luxuries in your cell etc. 10 years should be 10 years. It all comes down to lack of resources, or should I say misplacement of resources.

Jon how can a parole board undermine the judical system..I think you will find the light sentences are down to a plea bargain,cheaper for the state

**Grenvile** Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:47 pm

[quote="mullins"]

Jonsmith wrote:
Jayo Cluxton wrote:
OMAR wrote:I Needs ~~money~~ judges for longer prison sentences /quote]

Judges are being undermined by parole boards I would assume. When harsh sentences are handed down they are not enforced. The good behaviour thing is nonsense. Rewarding people for acting how they are supposed to act? Rubbish.. Good behaviour and attempts to better yourself should only result in easier time, more luxuries in your cell etc. 10 years should be 10 years. It all comes down to lack of resources, or should I say misplacement of resources.

Jon how can a parole board undermine the judical system..I think you will find the light sentences are down to a plea bargain,cheaper for the state

A judge give you 10 years, the parole board comes along then and advises the Minister for Justice that you are to be let out in 5. It's supposed to be based on analysis of the prisoner in question and their progress but I very much doubt that it plays out like that in practice.
That said I agree some judges hand out shockingly light sentences, but even when they do hand down a long spell in prison it is only as good as the parole board that is deciding.

**Jayo Cluxton** Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:58 pm

To my mind sentences are too light. And its all very well 'moving these people on' until they end up in a rented house beside you and run amok - which is happening in small villages all over Limerick, Tipp and Clare. No point in moving people on - the problem has to be tackled!

**mullins** Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:23 pm

VB about stab city tonight... affraid

great place to live affraid

**patrique** Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:27 pm

In Sweden if you are in prison you can tell the giuards you g=have a date that night, and they will let you out, give you a key to let yourself back in again in the morning. They do other things like that to try to REHABILITATE people into a nice society.

Re-offending runs at about 3%. I admit Sweden are able to ask offenders why they would harm such a pleasent society, but the prison regime works.

In GB and Ireland with harsh regimes, you go in as a wet behind the ears tearaway and come out a hardened villain. Re-offending is something like 90%.

So we could make it even harder and maybe push that up to 95%.

By the way has anyone ever seen inside Mountjoy? You would kill yourself if given a sentence of one week.

**OMAR** Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:12 pm

mullins wrote:VB about stab city tonight... great place to live

VB looked well out of his comfort Zone.

**samin12** Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:41 pm

[quote="patrique"]In Sweden if you are in prison you can tell the giuards you g=have a date that night, and they will let you out, give you a key to let yourself back in again in the morning. They do other things like that to try to REHABILITATE people into a nice society.

Re-offending runs at about 3%. I admit Sweden are able to ask offenders why they would harm such a pleasent society, but the prison regime works.

In GB and Ireland with harsh regimes, you go in as a wet behind the ears tearaway and come out a hardened villain. Re-offending is something like 90%.

So we could make it even harder and maybe push that up to 95%.

By the way has anyone ever seen inside Mountjoy? You would kill yourself if given a sentence of one week.[/quote]

Yes, was in it for a night about 10 years ago. Not nice

**patrique** Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:28 pm

Not nice at all.

This bravado nonsense from inmates about "you could do ten years standing on yer head" is just that.

Bravado nonsense.

**OMAR** Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:45 pm

patrique wrote:Not nice at all.

This bravado nonsense from inmates about "you could do ten years standing on yer head" is just that.

Bravado nonsense.

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