Re: Ulster Final 2013: Dún na nGall vs Mhuineacháin

**bocerty** Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:24 am

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:Bocerty we should rename you the cliché king.

A couple of clichés which I've had enough of by now:

"No Plan B" - What is this about? Every team prepares for weeks and months before a big game. Their plan is to prepare well and to be ready. After that, the plan is to win. If you're losing the game, you try to get back in front. But you don't plan to be losing so that Plan B can kick into action. In fact, what team in the history of sport - when finding themselves behind in a big game - have executed a plan B. One example will suffice. Eugene McGee dedicated a whole article to Plan B's in the paper today.

"The template is there" - The template is always there. A football match is a football match. You'd think it was an invention or a discovery or something, once one solves it, it becomes apparent to everyone how it's done. It looks so easy now.

The great big secret is that there is no secret. Donegal worked harder than everyone else last year. If you want to beat them, you work harder. You prepare better. That's the template.

given that your hardly ever on Loyal i wonder how you've had enough so quickly!!!!

the template cliche was TCs not mine if you have a look

**bocerty** Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:35 am

bocerty wrote:
Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:Bocerty we should rename you the cliché king.

A couple of clichés which I've had enough of by now:

"No Plan B" - What is this about? Every team prepares for weeks and months before a big game. Their plan is to prepare well and to be ready. After that, the plan is to win. If you're losing the game, you try to get back in front. But you don't plan to be losing so that Plan B can kick into action. In fact, what team in the history of sport - when finding themselves behind in a big game - have executed a plan B. One example will suffice. Eugene McGee dedicated a whole article to Plan B's in the paper today.

"The template is there" - The template is always there. A football match is a football match. You'd think it was an invention or a discovery or something, once one solves it, it becomes apparent to everyone how it's done. It looks so easy now.

The great big secret is that there is no secret. Donegal worked harder than everyone else last year. If you want to beat them, you work harder. You prepare better. That's the template.

given that your hardly ever on Loyal i wonder how you've had enough so quickly!!!!

the template cliche was TCs not mine if you have a look

Plus if hard work was enough to win matches sure we would have more counties winning trophies.

It takes a bit more than hard work to make a good team, no doubt it is a vital component but it isn't simply enough on its own.

**Thomas Clarke** Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:40 am

bocerty wrote: Plus if hard work was ~~enough~~ the template to win matches sure we would have more counties winning trophies.

**bocerty** Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:10 pm

Loyal2TheRoyal wrote:Bocerty we should rename you the cliché king.

A couple of clichés which I've had enough of by now:

"No Plan B" - What is this about? Every team prepares for weeks and months before a big game. Their plan is to prepare well and to be ready. After that, the plan is to win. If you're losing the game, you try to get back in front. But you don't plan to be losing so that Plan B can kick into action. In fact, what team in the history of sport - when finding themselves behind in a big game - have executed a plan B. One example will suffice. Eugene McGee dedicated a whole article to Plan B's in the paper today.

"The template is there" - The template is always there. A football match is a football match. You'd think it was an invention or a discovery or something, once one solves it, it becomes apparent to everyone how it's done. It looks so easy now.

The great big secret is that there is no secret. Donegal worked harder than everyone else last year. If you want to beat them, you work harder. You prepare better. That's the template.

Loyal for what its worth i think you've picked me up slightly wrong, though that may be my own fault.

My comment about Plan B was meant as it seemed that Jim hadnt planned for being behind at any stage of the game. Granted you cant legislate for losing a player as influential as Mark McHugh though the big question is would his staying on the pitch have changed the result???? This isnt a slight against Donegal either, i watched Tyrone in 2009 against Cork do exactly the same, we also did it against Dublin in 2010 i think it was when we insisted on hitting short kickouts the whole game - surely at some point in those two games we had to change the way we were playing!!!

As for templates - for Monaghan did nothing on Sunday that hasnt been done before by Tyrone Dublin Cork Kerry and Donegal amongst others - football is a simple sport which many people have sought to complicate with tactics and game plans and yet there is no substitute for a bit of graft and a few skilful footballers. Graft on its own is not enough.

i'll try and reduce the cliche count.............

Gaa_lover Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:46 am

So much for All Ireland contender better served slaughtering a team from div 3. Well done to Monaghan hope they don't celebrate too much and be ready for quarter final. Will be interesting if Donegal can recover most will be expecting them to beat Laois but will be tough with 6 day turn around.

**bald eagle** Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:53 am

If you're referring to what i said then i think you'll find i was talking about the virtual bye Cavan will receive this weekend when they play London, everyone in Ulster knows that our championship is the hardest fought of the lot! Monaghan have a great manager who is very highly thought of in Derry circles. Fair play to him for bringing the game to Donegal and giving them their first defeat in 3 years in Ulster, Donegal were far from the class of 2011 & 2012 but still managed to come through the 'toughest' side of the draw. In fairness, Monaghans Ulster title can be seen (by me at least) as the first upset since Cavan won with 'that' point!

Gaa_lover Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:22 pm

bald eagle wrote:If you're referring to what i said then i think you'll find i was talking about the virtual bye Cavan will receive this weekend when they play London, everyone in Ulster knows that our championship is the hardest fought of the lot! Monaghan have a great manager who is very highly thought of in Derry circles. Fair play to him for bringing the game to Donegal and giving them their first defeat in 3 years in Ulster, Donegal were far from the class of 2011 & 2012 but still managed to come through the 'toughest' side of the draw. In fairness, Monaghans Ulster title can be seen (by me at least) as the first upset since Cavan won with 'that' point!

Was referring to article that was on livegaelic.com during the summer. Writting off div 3 teams and claiming all div 1 teams should be slaughtering them, clearly Emmet here agreed with that article.

**Grenvile** Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:03 pm

bald eagle wrote:If you're referring to what i said then i think you'll find i was talking about the virtual bye Cavan will receive this weekend when they play London, everyone in Ulster knows that our championship is the hardest fought of the lot! Monaghan have a great manager who is very highly thought of in Derry circles. Fair play to him for bringing the game to Donegal and giving them their first defeat in 3 years in Ulster, Donegal were far from the class of 2011 & 2012 but still managed to come through the 'toughest' side of the draw. In fairness, Monaghans Ulster title can be seen (by me at least) as the first upset since Cavan won with 'that' point!

To count as the winner would it not need to be the final score of the game?

**Thomas Clarke** Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:06 pm

Jonsmith wrote:
bald eagle wrote:If you're referring to what i said then i think you'll find i was talking about the virtual bye Cavan will receive this weekend when they play London, everyone in Ulster knows that our championship is the hardest fought of the lot! Monaghan have a great manager who is very highly thought of in Derry circles. Fair play to him for bringing the game to Donegal and giving them their first defeat in 3 years in Ulster, Donegal were far from the class of 2011 & 2012 but still managed to come through the 'toughest' side of the draw. In fairness, Monaghans Ulster title can be seen (by me at least) as the first upset since Cavan won with 'that' point!

To count as the winner would it not need to be the final score of the game?

I was at that game. It was energy and pace that won Cavan their title, and a big performance by a young and oh so talented Dermot McCabe. Derry were already on the slide, and a shadow of the team they had been 3-4 years earlier.

**bald eagle** Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:09 pm

Jonsmith wrote:
bald eagle wrote:If you're referring to what i said then i think you'll find i was talking about the virtual bye Cavan will receive this weekend when they play London, everyone in Ulster knows that our championship is the hardest fought of the lot! Monaghan have a great manager who is very highly thought of in Derry circles. Fair play to him for bringing the game to Donegal and giving them their first defeat in 3 years in Ulster, Donegal were far from the class of 2011 & 2012 but still managed to come through the 'toughest' side of the draw. In fairness, Monaghans Ulster title can be seen (by me at least) as the first upset since Cavan won with 'that' point!

To count as the winner would it not need to be the final score of the game?

Jon, you have been around here long enough to know that you NEVER let the facts get in the way of a moan!

PS, what was the winning margin?

**bald eagle** Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:13 pm

Thomas Clarke wrote:
Jonsmith wrote:
bald eagle wrote:If you're referring to what i said then i think you'll find i was talking about the virtual bye Cavan will receive this weekend when they play London, everyone in Ulster knows that our championship is the hardest fought of the lot! Monaghan have a great manager who is very highly thought of in Derry circles. Fair play to him for bringing the game to Donegal and giving them their first defeat in 3 years in Ulster, Donegal were far from the class of 2011 & 2012 but still managed to come through the 'toughest' side of the draw. In fairness, Monaghans Ulster title can be seen (by me at least) as the first upset since Cavan won with 'that' point!

To count as the winner would it not need to be the final score of the game?

I was at that game. It was energy and pace that won Cavan their title, and a big performance by a young and oh so talented Dermot McCabe. Derry were already on the slide, and a shadow of the team they had been 3-4 years earlier.

Well i watched it at a certain Mr. Cavanaghs house in the Moy as i was there on business, the stick i got after it is the main reason for my bitterness! It will never be forgiven!

**Grenvile** Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:17 pm

Thomas Clarke wrote:
Jonsmith wrote:
bald eagle wrote:If you're referring to what i said then i think you'll find i was talking about the virtual bye Cavan will receive this weekend when they play London, everyone in Ulster knows that our championship is the hardest fought of the lot! Monaghan have a great manager who is very highly thought of in Derry circles. Fair play to him for bringing the game to Donegal and giving them their first defeat in 3 years in Ulster, Donegal were far from the class of 2011 & 2012 but still managed to come through the 'toughest' side of the draw. In fairness, Monaghans Ulster title can be seen (by me at least) as the first upset since Cavan won with 'that' point!

To count as the winner would it not need to be the final score of the game?

I was at that game. It was energy and pace that won Cavan their title, and a big performance by a young and oh so talented Dermot McCabe. Derry were already on the slide, and a shadow of the team they had been 3-4 years earlier.

There was serious pace in that team allright.. Jason, Peter, Larry, Fintan Cahill were all lightning, Carolan could move too. Jayo's goal was the difference in the end.

**Thomas Clarke** Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:21 pm

bald eagle wrote: Well i watched it at a certain Mr. Cavanaghs house in the Moy as i was there on business, the stick i got after it is the main reason for my bitterness! It will never be forgiven!

Surely Teddy wouldn't have been one to wind up a Derryman?!

**Thomas Clarke** Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:29 pm

I have to say, I've seen a couple of people talking about Monaghan over-celebrating their Ulster win, but I think they are completely right to enjoy it.

This is not a side with serious ambitions of winning an AI, and their main goal was clearly an Anglo Celt. At the start of the year, there were 7 teams thinking about winning an AI, and the rest were looking for provincial glory or a run in the qualifiers. That doesn't mean that those sides wouldn't take an AI if one came along, but the success or otherwise of their seasons won't be measured on it.

Monaghan will refocus in the next couple of days, and will go to Croke Park looking to batter hell out of whoever they face in their quarter final. Maybe they'll win it, and maybe they'll keep going, but the likelihood is that they will fall before the 3rd Sunday in September. And when that happens, they can look back on their magical 48 hours after winning Ulster, and relive those memories. That is what sport is about. It isn't about burying excitement for fear it will come back to haunt you on some future day - it is about the delight of achieving your personal goals, and enjoying those moments when they come.

Fair play to them, and I'm sure their 48 hours of enjoyment won't have any affect on their next performance.

**bald eagle** Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:14 pm

Thomas Clarke wrote:
bald eagle wrote: Well i watched it at a certain Mr. Cavanaghs house in the Moy as i was there on business, the stick i got after it is the main reason for my bitterness! It will never be forgiven!

Surely Teddy wouldn't have been one to wind up a Derryman?!

I'll be honest, he was alright, it was the rest of them!! All in good spirits though!

**bald eagle** Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:18 pm

There are men on that Monaghan team that thought they would never get close to winning Ulster again, let them celebrate and leave them alone as they deserve it! These are lads that look after themselves well and a few night out won't harm them!

**Boxtyeater** Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:35 pm

Thomas Clarke wrote:I have to say, I've seen a couple of people talking about Monaghan over-celebrating their Ulster win, but I think they are completely right to enjoy it.

Maybe they'll win it, and maybe they'll keep going, but the likelihood is that they will fall before the 3rd Sunday in September. And when that happens, they can look back on their magical 48 hours after winning Ulster, and relive those memories. That is what sport is about. It isn't about burying excitement for fear it will come back to haunt you on some future day - it is about the delight of achieving your personal goals, and enjoying those moments when they come.

Fair play to them, and I'm sure their 48 hours of enjoyment won't have any affect on their next performance.

About time someone showed a bit of common sense regarding this issue. Proper order I say.
They'll get back to work and no doubt will give an account of themselves. Malachy O'Rourke is a bit more astute than many other team managers. Embarassed

**KerryKatriona** Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:24 am

Disagree. But aim low and you will hit more targets.

I wouldn't mind if the celebrations were already arranged but they weren't - they were impromptu. There will be plenty of time to celebrate when they go out of the C'ship. They can all bring the AC to their clubs and go on the tear when they get their medals.

It's like celebrating climbing Everest when you are halfway up. Would have thought the older guys would be the ones who didn't want this kind of thing cos they must know that Sam is at least as near a possibility as they have ever had.

If the Anglo Celt is such a big deal it must be quite unfulfilling to win Sam through the back door.

**bald eagle** Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:52 am

Who were your contenders for Sam at the start of the year Kerry? And who did you pick out to win Ulster? No one seen Monaghan winning, likely including the most of Monaghan and some members of the squad! Let them celebrate, they deserve it!

**KerryKatriona** Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:25 am

bald eagle wrote:Who were your contenders for Sam at the start of the year Kerry? And who did you pick out to win Ulster? No one seen Monaghan winning, likely including the most of Monaghan and some members of the squad! Let them celebrate, they deserve it!

BE - with all due respect it's totally irrelevant who my contenders were. But they are still contenders for Sam and that's where their focus should be IMO. I can't see how celebrating the Ulster win like they did will not lessen the hunger and focus for more. I think it's daft.

**bald eagle** Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:37 am

So you didn't pick them as potiential winners then....

**KerryKatriona** Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:04 am

bald eagle wrote:So you didn't pick them as potiential winners then....

Can't see the relevance at all??

Did Monaghan start training in January just to win the Anglo Celt?

**bald eagle** Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:26 am

So you think they had serious designs on winning the All Ireland when the management team were setting their targets at the start of the year?

**KerryKatriona** Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:00 pm

Seriously BE I cannot understand what point you are trying to make and find it a bit bizarre! It seems you are saying that Malachy O’Rourke said ‘lets try to win the Anglo Celt lads’ and now they have it’s a case of let’s go on the pi55 and celebrate achieving our goall?!?!?

Regardless of what targets they set do you not think they could change them?? They are just three matches away from winning Sam. They comprehensively beat the holders playing a similar system to what won it for Donegal. They are unlikely to get a better chance of success. IMO it is not a time to go parading around the country showing off a bit of secondary silverware when the big prize is still very much there to be had. By all means enjoy the win and Ulster success – but when the time is right.

Again I will mention the Dublin hurlers here. They were absolutely delighted to win the Bob O’Keeffe having not done so for 52 years. And they will rightly cherish it for the rest of their lives. And having done so Kilkenny and Galway and Waterford and Clare and Cork and Limerick and Wexford still stood in their way for Liam. But their eyes immediately turned towards the big prize.

They see Leinster as a means to an end rather than the end itself. That’s ambition and aspiration. Give me that kind of mentality any day.

**Thomas Clarke** Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:19 pm

I find this 'All Ireland or bust' mentality really nauseating. It is such an arrogant viewpoint, and is typically only found in those with no understanding/appreciation of what it means to come from a small county.

The time to enjoy the Ulster title win is now, Not a month from now when the moment has passed, and the team has shipped a heavy loss. Every year homecoming parties are cancelled by sides who have lost AI finals, simply because the appetite for celebration vanishes after a defeat. Nobody is saying that Monaghan will be rolling into Croke Pk for their quarter final hungover or content with their lot. They will be giving everything to win again but, if they don't, they will still have had a magical year and been able to enjoy it at the right time.

I know that there are posters on here who believe that the league is unimportant, the provincials are unimportant, and that everything is unimportant except the AI final. Well, it is easy for someone from a county with enormous population and financial resources to dream of winning an AI, but not everyone gets to live that dream. Monaghan set out their stall this year to win promotion in the league, and win the Anglo Celt cup for the 4th time in 75 years. Anything else was a bonus. They achieved their goals, and rejoiced with their fans for a couple of days. It was a once-in-a-generation moment for Monaghan, and I'm delighted for them. If anything, a couple of days witnessing the joy they have brought to their fans may even inspire them to greater heights in the rounds to come.

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